Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

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Deuzerre
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Deuzerre » 04 May 2016, 20:30

MadDemiurg wrote:I do not underestimate stealth, in fact stealth I use stealth extensively both by Eldar and Chaos. I just find Tzeench stealth to be inferior to the normal one. Sure, you can have just 1 ship covering your fleet with running silent, but at the same time it gives away your position which is a deal breaker for me. I'd rather just use running silent with my whole fleet.


It's an alternate running silent, it allows a blob of the fleet to be silent without burning the silent order. It has a disadvantage (the ship with it is obviously in the middle of the cloud) and has been seriously nerfed by the changes to assassination/data.
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MadDemiurg
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MadDemiurg » 04 May 2016, 20:47

Deuzerre wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:I do not underestimate stealth, in fact stealth I use stealth extensively both by Eldar and Chaos. I just find Tzeench stealth to be inferior to the normal one. Sure, you can have just 1 ship covering your fleet with running silent, but at the same time it gives away your position which is a deal breaker for me. I'd rather just use running silent with my whole fleet.


It's an alternate running silent, it allows a blob of the fleet to be silent without burning the silent order. It has a disadvantage (the ship with it is obviously in the middle of the cloud) and has been seriously nerfed by the changes to assassination/data.


Well, yeah, I know, I used it. Imo advantages do not really outweight disadvantages here and the favour is supposed to be a bonus rather than a tweak (well, other favours are straight up buffs). I can see some use for it in long range lance fleets but these are kinda dead atm.

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clench
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby clench » 04 May 2016, 22:05

MadDemiurg wrote:I do not underestimate stealth, in fact stealth I use stealth extensively both by Eldar and Chaos. I just find Tzeench stealth to be inferior to the normal one. Sure, you can have just 1 ship covering your fleet with running silent, but at the same time it gives away your position which is a deal breaker for me. I'd rather just use running silent with my whole fleet.



The thing is, the way the cloud works you can stealth your whole fleet in an instant and then have them darting in and out constantly restealthing for the duration while saving your orders for every other ship in your fleet.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MadDemiurg » 04 May 2016, 22:46

clench wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:I do not underestimate stealth, in fact stealth I use stealth extensively both by Eldar and Chaos. I just find Tzeench stealth to be inferior to the normal one. Sure, you can have just 1 ship covering your fleet with running silent, but at the same time it gives away your position which is a deal breaker for me. I'd rather just use running silent with my whole fleet.



The thing is, the way the cloud works you can stealth your whole fleet in an instant and then have them darting in and out constantly restealthing for the duration while saving your orders for every other ship in your fleet.


The same with normal running silent, with the exception that every ship has to use it. But it does not give out your location.

So basically visible location vs saving orders. Everything else is the same.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby clench » 05 May 2016, 00:10

MadDemiurg wrote:
clench wrote:
MadDemiurg wrote:I do not underestimate stealth, in fact stealth I use stealth extensively both by Eldar and Chaos. I just find Tzeench stealth to be inferior to the normal one. Sure, you can have just 1 ship covering your fleet with running silent, but at the same time it gives away your position which is a deal breaker for me. I'd rather just use running silent with my whole fleet.



The thing is, the way the cloud works you can stealth your whole fleet in an instant and then have them darting in and out constantly restealthing for the duration while saving your orders for every other ship in your fleet.


The same with normal running silent, with the exception that every ship has to use it. But it does not give out your location.

So basically visible location vs saving orders. Everything else is the same.


I find an experienced player knows where you are anyway, so there really isn't any hiding, at least once you're engaged. There is definitely a tactical benefit at the start, but it's hard to pull off unless your whole fleet is specced stealth and remaining stealth. Once you're spotted, your enemy knows where you are.

It's really only a factor with Eldar and after the nerf to Eldar pulsar range it won't be as much of an issue.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MYNAME? » 05 May 2016, 01:21

700 pt game

2 ACH 2 devastation+ iconoclast scout. All 15k out and you have fighter cover. Eats carrier fleets alive and works ok against chaos brawler fleets.. spanks imperials and orks just dont get surrounded. Not a good fleet vs eldar though.. thats when I use my carnage and hellbringers.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MYNAME? » 05 May 2016, 01:35

MadDemiurg wrote:I definitely agree that Nurgle and Slaanesh are both great favours ang Khorne and Tzeench kinda suck.

Tzeenche's version of running silent is actually inferior imo as it gives away your position. I might be ok with it if it was a separate ability. Echo is useful for long range kiting, but overall that's it. Khorne +1 LS is not great vs anything but Eldar that did not go Ultwe. +1 Boarding in the end is inferior to another +10 troop value Nurgle gives over Khorne in terms of crits scored vs taken.

Both Nurgle and Slaanesh are top tier though, and I feel like it's what's holding Chaos fleet together atm.

I had like 90% winrate with Chaos in low point games, where I can spam Slaaneshi helbringers or just go 3x slaughters in 450 pt. However my lineup in 600-700 pt games is... much less satisfying. I still win 60-70% probably, but the majority of the wins are actually against poor builds that still dominate the MP. It works well in mirror matches and vs Eldar (even good ones, at least among the ones I've played against), It works "ok" vs IN, whom I mostly beat by better positioning and focus fire + Slaanesh cancelling orders, it kinda works vs orks... until you run into someone who actually knows what he's doing... cause 700pt Ork is pretty terrifying and it's pointless to compete in terms of dakka (and if you go close helooo traktors). So I'm struggling to build a list that would include both a good kiting setup vs Orks in high point matches, fast stealthy fleet vs Eldar and capable brawlers vs IN.


Tzeentch ability is about breaking the ID status... also makes carrier fleet users cry..... see 12 nasty squads of bombers coming your way? Opps sorry those bombers are coming back to refuel.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MadDemiurg » 05 May 2016, 08:21

Look, I know how stealth works :D. Also, it still will be very much relevant for Eldar, pulsar range nerf or not (which is not a given I might add). A good player can guees the direction you move in, but if there are multiple options he can always guess wrong. Unless you give out yourself with defensive fighters or smth. And yes, it's valuable to have a first engagement on your terms (which can quickly become the last). I like to spec the whole fleet with Camo, I find it quite invaluable. If you want to save up on upgrades and orders, yes, you can use Tzzench, but I find the advantages it gives much less satisfying.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MadDemiurg » 05 May 2016, 08:24

MYNAME? wrote:700 pt game

2 ACH 2 devastation+ iconoclast scout. All 15k out and you have fighter cover. Eats carrier fleets alive and works ok against chaos brawler fleets.. spanks imperials and orks just dont get surrounded. Not a good fleet vs eldar though.. thats when I use my carnage and hellbringers.


Are devastations any better than hellbringers though? They have the same number of haunchbays as mk 1, cost more, and although they have some lance firepower, it's rather low.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MYNAME? » 05 May 2016, 17:13

MadDemiurg wrote:
MYNAME? wrote:700 pt game

2 ACH 2 devastation+ iconoclast scout. All 15k out and you have fighter cover. Eats carrier fleets alive and works ok against chaos brawler fleets.. spanks imperials and orks just dont get surrounded. Not a good fleet vs eldar though.. thats when I use my carnage and hellbringers.


Are devastations any better than hellbringers though? They have the same number of haunchbays as mk 1, cost more, and although they have some lance firepower, it's rather low.


Yes IMO Devastations are a lil bit better than Hellbringers. You gotta think in a 700 point game if you are going Lance Carrier Fleet you wanna get all the Lances you can get. 2 Devistations combined pretty much gives you another Acheron and styx in 1 package. 4 Extra Lances 4 Ord Bays. That is really good because you can put the ord bays on autocast or whatever while you control your fleet and keep them out of trouble. I have a decent thread explaining on how my builds work. its the Chaos fleet long range setup. just check it out.


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