Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

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Auzor
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Auzor » 03 May 2016, 16:48

MadDemiurg wrote: Wall of text

I'm at Multiplayer admiral level 7 or something and have plenty of upgrades remaining.
That said:
Marks:

Mark of Tzeentch: why oh why does it:
-replace silent running,
-share a cooldown with orders.. Mark of Nurgle, Slaanesh & Khorne are straight upgrades.
Points for style as Tzeentch looks the coolest. /cries.
As for Stealth.. nobody will notice the moving pretty cloud; sure. It *can* stealth your fleet, which is nice.. but countered with some recon probes; unlike Nurgle, Slaanesh, Khorne.

I first partially started going for a full carrier fleet. However, those ships are expensive, a smaller number of fighters can counter bomber spam reasonably well, and eternal kiting is boring, to impossible.
Made a new admiral, (level 7 now) and went full slaughter. Blood for the blood god! Except I gave two Mark of Nurgle, 1 Mark of Slaanesh..
Why 2 Marks of Nurgle: I give AP macro, short engagement range.. so these ships are boarded, and reasonably often 1 gets killed.
BTW: sword escort spam is *adorable*. Come to Papa Nurgle, eat AoE dps.
Nurgle > Khorne for close combat.. even daemonic strike doesn't matter, as I go for the normal boarding action instead..
Build *tanky* ships: sure AP macro, but the rest is surviving. Outlast opponent, and pummel him into the ground.

Light cruisers & macro cannons: uhm.. at range they rarely hit. Suppose at 9k range, I'm shooting something with 50% armor.
40% accuracy base, vs 50% armor.. 20% "damage". Upgrade accuracy? Ok, 50% accuracy, vs 50% armor.. 25% damage.
In addition, they can obviously only fire on 1 side. Get in close with broadsides, and the *other* broadisde will chew on something too.
Both are valuable however, as support dps, for being 225 speed, for being cheaper than the normal cruisers etc.

The light cruiser carrier: As a carrier, the devastation is not worth it; too slow, more expensive, takes up 1 of 3 cruiser slots.
In a "dakka" fleet, 1 hellbringer still brings 2 fighter squads.. IF you go up vs a carrier fleet, this can be a match saver.
Vs torpedoes: unfortunately, the pilots are not very bright, and tend to intercept the torps that are not going to hit you first.. still, can help there too.

BTW: the Hades, is the Murder cruiser, with extra lance turrets.
Being cheap is nice.. but you only get 2!! Battlecruiser slots. So.. no. Even with more slots, I'd still say no, especially after the Overlord BC had the batteries buffed.
The Murder is useless; so sad. Compare the frontal dps to the Dauntless light cruiser.. somehow the Dauntless got some extra Macro-turrets able to shoot *forward*. Yes, your lance has more range.. it is also on a more expensive cruiser which doesn't have 75% frontal armor..
As for "chasing":
vs Eldar, lance-chasing is.. unreliable. vs everything else, the Slaughter would *catch* it and.. murder it. And.. vs non-eldar, the lance might be better placed covering the rear XD.

600 pts:
Indeed, Acheron + triple slaughter.
Or, trade Acheron for Hellbringer for the fighter cover, and an escort. or, dump escort, dump a slaughter, keep Acheron.
Or, Styx, Hellbringer, and 2 Slaughters.

700 pts:
more options..

BB: The Desolator costs 233? points, and has 150 speed. M'kay.
I would have to level an Imperial Admiral, to check the retribution; it is in a similar price range. I thought it ALSO had 150 speed. M'kay.
But with the engine upgrade, the retribution is actually FASTER (I *think* that is correct). (and can shoot melta torpedoes; eh)
So:
GL with Lances & Torpedoes vs Eldar.
vs Orks: this is your slowest ship, look up "tractor beam".
vs IN: If you set this to long range, enemy auto-shoot Nova cannons actually have a target; it turns.. SLOW, unless you spend an upgrade on that..


Slaanesh + Nurgle is awesome. That is all.

I went without MWJ, to try it; and love it; it is really a crutch. Good on Tindalos for nerfing it.
I now bring a lot of invulnerable shields (all slaughters); some shield transfers, some recon, and a considerable bunch of plasma probes; Plasma has less AoE range; but it explodes faster, and it actually deals damage.
If my cruiser deals 5 dps at range, reaching 100 damage takes 20 seconds. a few plasma bombs IMO also help considerably for messing up eldar pulsar attacks.

Overall, the Chaos fleet is "ok" as powerlevel goes. Kiting is boring and displeases Khorne. Fortress assault.. kite, kite, kite. I do occasionally kite, if my slaughters are destroyed, or I would bring mostly light cruisers etc.
I feel IN is strong enough; dictate fight a bit with Nova cannon & torps; but NC ships are expensive etc. Still win most. IMO: don't rely on carrier fleet; plenty Imps bring a Mars and/or emperor; and you eat their "artillery". Torps are fantastic vs Chaos brawler fleet. I would like a "brawler carrier" so I could have fighters in the "melee" on standby.
Eldar: worse players are clubbed like baby-seals. Good players: sweat dripping; USE PLASMA BOMBS, DISRUPT THE ATTACK. Better players: watch fleet disappear. Change pulsars, give more ship variety, etc.
Orks: I win a lot. 225 speed makes it IMO easier to avoid rams. Stay out of front arc, and let papa nurgle help bring a ship down.
LOL at the resulting mutiny cascade, courtesy of Slaanesh. Still balanced; but few good Orc players with Chain-pulls etc.

Besides the Murder, the hades, and the BB, I'm a bit unconvinced by the Devastation & Carnage (ranged Macros.. sigh).
And I don't understand the infidel escort. 46 points for another micro-joy, that might hit with 2 torps? Brilliant! Auto-launch still sucks.
those are also the worst torps: no boarding, no melta and +50% speed option; no "50% dodging, 100% AP "torps..
This thing needs such a buff.. in principle, I'd love to try to combine some torpedoes into Chaos. In practice..


Also: at short range, the Idolator is out-dps-ed by the AP Macro sword frigates..
And the default mode, every time, is STILL BROADSIDE.


BTW: I did beat Bosie's IN fleet. :) Once. :roll:
(NuRhoPhi)

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Bosie
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Bosie » 03 May 2016, 17:21

Auzor wrote:BTW: I did beat Bosie's IN fleet. :) Once.


Blood for the Blood God!
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MadDemiurg
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MadDemiurg » 03 May 2016, 18:26

I definitely agree that Nurgle and Slaanesh are both great favours ang Khorne and Tzeench kinda suck.

Tzeenche's version of running silent is actually inferior imo as it gives away your position. I might be ok with it if it was a separate ability. Echo is useful for long range kiting, but overall that's it. Khorne +1 LS is not great vs anything but Eldar that did not go Ultwe. +1 Boarding in the end is inferior to another +10 troop value Nurgle gives over Khorne in terms of crits scored vs taken.

Both Nurgle and Slaanesh are top tier though, and I feel like it's what's holding Chaos fleet together atm.

I had like 90% winrate with Chaos in low point games, where I can spam Slaaneshi helbringers or just go 3x slaughters in 450 pt. However my lineup in 600-700 pt games is... much less satisfying. I still win 60-70% probably, but the majority of the wins are actually against poor builds that still dominate the MP. It works well in mirror matches and vs Eldar (even good ones, at least among the ones I've played against), It works "ok" vs IN, whom I mostly beat by better positioning and focus fire + Slaanesh cancelling orders, it kinda works vs orks... until you run into someone who actually knows what he's doing... cause 700pt Ork is pretty terrifying and it's pointless to compete in terms of dakka (and if you go close helooo traktors). So I'm struggling to build a list that would include both a good kiting setup vs Orks in high point matches, fast stealthy fleet vs Eldar and capable brawlers vs IN.

Auzor
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Auzor » 03 May 2016, 21:21

MadDemiurg wrote:I definitely agree that Nurgle and Slaanesh are both great favours ang Khorne and Tzeench kinda suck.

Tzeenche's version of running silent is actually inferior imo as it gives away your position. I might be ok with it if it was a separate ability. Echo is useful for long range kiting, but overall that's it. Khorne +1 LS is not great vs anything but Eldar that did not go Ultwe. +1 Boarding in the end is inferior to another +10 troop value Nurgle gives over Khorne in terms of crits scored vs taken.

Both Nurgle and Slaanesh are top tier though, and I feel like it's what's holding Chaos fleet together atm.

I had like 90% winrate with Chaos in low point games, where I can spam Slaaneshi helbringers or just go 3x slaughters in 450 pt. However my lineup in 600-700 pt games is... much less satisfying. I still win 60-70% probably, but the majority of the wins are actually against poor builds that still dominate the MP. It works well in mirror matches and vs Eldar (even good ones, at least among the ones I've played against), It works "ok" vs IN, whom I mostly beat by better positioning and focus fire + Slaanesh cancelling orders, it kinda works vs orks... until you run into someone who actually knows what he's doing... cause 700pt Ork is pretty terrifying and it's pointless to compete in terms of dakka (and if you go close helooo traktors). So I'm struggling to build a list that would include both a good kiting setup vs Orks in high point matches, fast stealthy fleet vs Eldar and capable brawlers vs IN.


1 Tzeentch ship ( a light long range cruiser..) can be usefull for re-stealthing an entire kiting fleet after an enemy has used up probes etc.
(troo-lolooo loloo)
I'm rather surprised Khorne doesn't give a bonus to "normal" boarding attacks too.. but they just mirrored the IN marines favor. Eldar Biel-tan gets +20 troops..

Chaos & Low points: absolutely. At 450 pts IN too struggles to get a "balanced fleet" together; Eldar normally doesn't have the Voidstalker yet and brings some of the torpedo+starcannon cruisers.. LEL.

Vs Orks: a light-cruiser fleet can kite forever;
if you go brawler: tractor is bad; but Ork ships lack manoevring. Bring Plasma bombs, or stasis bombs. If you can nail an ork cruiser 3 times with a plasma bomb, it's gonna go down much easier. Stasis bomb can split an Ork fleet. Make sure you are not tractored into your own bombs.

Orks are.. much scarier when they DON't bring a BB.
Definitely not the effect what a BB should have, but honestly, if I see an Ork BB I'm like "pfew, ok, 1 slow tank to save till last".
And with Slaanesh it might insubordinate before!! :lol:

Honestly, good eldar > Chaos. Lances, meet Holofields; Bombers, meet fighters & outspeeding fast ships. No ship should close into "Nurgle" range.. despite Eldar being supposedly a short ranged fleet.. Eldar holofields also works vs station lances in station assault; they can lure & dodge stations fighters; they don't really care about extra escorts; easily removed if necessary..
IN is better equipped to handle them. (not when needing to capture data from Eldar.. )
better equipped: some ranged artillery to force abandoning attacks; Inquisitors tarrot to reveal some pesky ships; extra upgrade & skill from AM for some more bombs; the new 25% shield upgrade; ...
Possibly non-BB, combo-tractor Orks are stronger in good hands. Orks can be infuriating in convoy though.. -tractors escort, ram.
I haven't encountered enough good players to make a good opinion.

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MadDemiurg » 03 May 2016, 22:17

Tzeench - well, I usually prefer the normal running silent. It does free up orders for other ships, but it also gives away your position. I'm a pretty big fan of running silent overall. Can't hit what you can't see.

As for MUs:

Disclaimer: I have high level admirals for all 4 factions, so I know the MUs from both sides fairly well. I'm probably the least experienced with IN out of 4 as I find them the most boring, but I've played a fair bit even with them.

Eldar - As I already mentioned, I find my list working very well vs Eldar. Much better than any IN list could hope in the endgame. In the midgame Eldar vs IN is quite painful for Eldar because of novas, but higher health ships can survive long enough to deal with IN in my experience. My Chaos build works very well vs typical endgame Eldar using BB + 2 BCs + (maybe some escorts). I've already posted this, but I'll reiterate here:

-Key favour vs Eldar is Slaanesh, Nurgle is indeed pointless for this MU. Slaanesh can turn off all mobility skills for 30 sec on an Eldar ship which usually means death
-2nd important component is running silent + camo. Means that Eldar would need to come into 5-7.5k range to detect you
-I use only 225 speed ships, meaning 450 speed with AAF. That's usually enough to keep up and a death sentence once you silence them
-I also use recon probes on hellbringers to keep track of running eldar ships

In practice it usually allows me to easily eliminate 1-2 big Eldar ships which is GG for BB + BC comp.

If I would play vs this as Eldar, I would actually go for a much larger number of smaller ships like auroras + hellebore escorts, making it difficult to eliminate a large portion of your firepower with 1 blow. Most Eldar do not do this though.

Orks - well, I also own a lvl 8 ork admiral atm, and I did not even buy the BB yet (might be useful for mirrors though). What orks can do however, is field 3 CAs + 2 BCs in a 700 point game. Each equipped with traktor, taunt, MWJ (in 7.5k range due to improved augurs). Effectively this has 15k+ reach. You can teleport 7.5k forward and then taunt/tractor in another 7.5k (and just by coincidence you have 7.5k detection) and then big red button for some more. Kiting this is VERY difficult (it can easily molest Eldar with good execution). But brawling this does not look feasible too. You may even outdps it at certain ranges, but well timed taunt + traktor + big red button combos will ram the shit out of your ships. Overall doesn't look good. I'd go with kiting, but the ships that can do serious damage in 700 pt games like Styx and Acheron are slow-ish and Hellbringer spam doesn't cut it anymore.

IN - Kiting doesn't really work due to novas, so you have to engage. In lower point games I can confidently outbrawl IN, but at 600-700p problem is that you're out of good brawling ships to field. Sure, you have 3 Slaughters, but what next? Acheron is OK for fire support, but it does not contribute as much DPS as another brawling ship would. I feel like IN 700p brawling setups are a bit better, although all in all it's still kinda ok as you can outmaneuver them. It does take significant effort though. 600p setups are more in favour of Chaos because IN ships are a tad expensive.

Mirrors - Well, Slaughters imo are superior pretty much anything chaos has, as they are either just as fast or faster and have top dps for the cost. It's not that other comps have no chance, but Slaughter is probably the best ship in mirror.
Last edited by MadDemiurg on 04 May 2016, 01:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Psykmoe » 03 May 2016, 22:38

Auzor wrote:I'm rather surprised Khorne doesn't give a bonus to "normal" boarding attacks too.. but they just mirrored the IN marines favor. Eldar Biel-tan gets +20 troops..



What does this even mean?

Khorne favor gives +1 attack die to LS by replacing it with Daemoniac Strike.

The other part of Khorne favor (Frenzied troops) gives +10 troop value (a purely defensive stat) and +1 attack die on 'normal boarding', so a Khorne hellbringer rolls 3 dice instead of 2, a Khorne Slaughter rolls 4 dice instead of 3 in regular boarding.

This is true for Marine favor too.

Three bonuses.

To LS +1
To Boarding +1
To Troop Value (purely defensive)+10

Biel-Tan gives more troop value but no bonus to straight up boarding because guess what - going abeam with the ships of other races at 1.5k distance is a stunningly terrible idea for any eldar vessel anyway. :mrgreen:

To LS +1
To Boarding +0
To Troop Value +20

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Auzor » 04 May 2016, 13:56

Psykmoe wrote:
Auzor wrote:I'm rather surprised Khorne doesn't give a bonus to "normal" boarding attacks too.. but they just mirrored the IN marines favor. Eldar Biel-tan gets +20 troops..



What does this even mean?

Khorne favor gives +1 attack die to LS by replacing it with Daemoniac Strike.

The other part of Khorne favor (Frenzied troops) gives +10 troop value (a purely defensive stat) and +1 attack die on 'normal boarding', so a Khorne hellbringer rolls 3 dice instead of 2, a Khorne Slaughter rolls 4 dice instead of 3 in regular boarding.

This is true for Marine favor too.

Three bonuses.

To LS +1
To Boarding +1
To Troop Value (purely defensive)+10

Biel-Tan gives more troop value but no bonus to straight up boarding because guess what - going abeam with the ships of other races at 1.5k distance is a stunningly terrible idea for any eldar vessel anyway. :mrgreen:

To LS +1
To Boarding +0
To Troop Value +20


It means that I got it wrong. good catch.
(was that tooltip modified? I seem to not remember the +1 normal boarding action in beta.. I even briefly took Khorne for anti-eldar triple lightning strike (teleportarium); but I dropped that approach. (Hi Ulthwe.. )

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby clench » 04 May 2016, 19:21

MadDemiurg wrote:I definitely agree that Nurgle and Slaanesh are both great favours ang Khorne and Tzeench kinda suck.

Tzeenche's version of running silent is actually inferior imo as it gives away your position. I might be ok with it if it was a separate ability. Echo is useful for long range kiting, but overall that's it. Khorne +1 LS is not great vs anything but Eldar that did not go Ultwe. +1 Boarding in the end is inferior to another +10 troop value Nurgle gives over Khorne in terms of crits scored vs taken.

Both Nurgle and Slaanesh are top tier though, and I feel like it's what's holding Chaos fleet together atm.

I had like 90% winrate with Chaos in low point games, where I can spam Slaaneshi helbringers or just go 3x slaughters in 450 pt. However my lineup in 600-700 pt games is... much less satisfying. I still win 60-70% probably, but the majority of the wins are actually against poor builds that still dominate the MP. It works well in mirror matches and vs Eldar (even good ones, at least among the ones I've played against), It works "ok" vs IN, whom I mostly beat by better positioning and focus fire + Slaanesh cancelling orders, it kinda works vs orks... until you run into someone who actually knows what he's doing... cause 700pt Ork is pretty terrifying and it's pointless to compete in terms of dakka (and if you go close helooo traktors). So I'm struggling to build a list that would include both a good kiting setup vs Orks in high point matches, fast stealthy fleet vs Eldar and capable brawlers vs IN.


I see a lot of people on the forums underestimating Tzneetch.. it's actually quite powerful.

It's not about hiding your position, but turning your revealed ships back into blips.

Blips can't be targeted by weaponry, so Tzneetch is one of the most important favors for a kiting fleet. Spot the enemy up close, full speed away, then use cloud to get free hits while the enemy can't target you.

It's important to wait until after the enemy use their beacon or probe so they can't spot you again. The cooldown on both is quite long so you'll have about 3mins of firing with long range lances without taking any shots in return.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Deuzerre » 04 May 2016, 20:11

It's funny how many people underestimate, especially at high level, the ability to turn back into a blip. A blip is not possible to aim at with non skillshots, so all long range weapons are ineffective.

As chaos and eldar, this is invaluable.
"Common sense isn't as common as the name would imply"

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MadDemiurg » 04 May 2016, 20:26

I do not underestimate stealth, in fact stealth I use stealth extensively both by Eldar and Chaos. I just find Tzeench stealth to be inferior to the normal one. Sure, you can have just 1 ship covering your fleet with running silent, but at the same time it gives away your position which is a deal breaker for me. I'd rather just use running silent with my whole fleet.


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