Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

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MadDemiurg
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Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MadDemiurg » 02 May 2016, 20:27

So how do you build a high level chaos fleet?

I have my 2nd admiral at lvl 8 atm (1st one was during beta), but I'm still not sure what would be the best option.

FIrst of all, ships.

LCs:
Hellbringer MK 1 - actually decent 9k macro dps for its class + 2 launchbays. Solid ship. 225 speed. 116 pts
Hellbringer MK 2 - Anyone using it? You can do some lance damage when kiting but it's so very low... 225 speed. 109 pts

CAs:
Slaughter - speedy ship (same as LC) with great 6k broadside dps. 225 speed. 143 pts.
Carnage - Same as slaughter, minus lance batteries on broadsides and extra 3k range on all macro. 188 speed. 139 pts.
Murder - Same as carage, but trading macro turret and missle pod (for what it's worth) for a prow lance thet is supposedly good for chasing someone, but whom you're gonna chase as chaos? Crap. 188 speed. Also 139 pts.
Devastation - Essentially trades one of the macro turrets of helbringer mk1 for a missle pod and mk2's lance batteries. All while having 188 speed and costing 152 points. Anyone using it? I'd argue it's as bad as Murder.

BCs:
Acheron - THE lance boat. 6 lance dps at 12-15k range is actually very considerable and has some added macro power up close, although not that much. 188 speed and 162 pts.
Hades - Actually it's carnage with 2 lance turrets instead of macro turret and missile pod and a prow lance it has for some unknown reasons. I'd say all in all it's about equal to Carnage while costing more, but also having 1 more skill, even if the prow lance is useless. All in all not entirely terrible, but there are better options. 188 speed and 155 pts.
Styx - The best deal in terms of launchbays per point, and still has some long range lance and macro firepower. Probably the best carrier if you don't look at speed. 188 speed and 178 points.

BBs:
Now I think these are fairly useless, but let's take a look anyways.
Despoiler - Actually the only chaos ship that has good prow dps, 7 lance dps total, which is more than Acheron. It's still unclear whom you gonna chace though. Broadsides are basically carnage broadsides with built in range upgrade and it can also redirect some lance power to broadside, but would still lose out to Slaughter. Also has 4 launchbays. Basically it combines the carrier capacity of Styx with macro capabilities of Carnage (at 12k range) and some impressive prow firepower, but this comes at a steep cost of 252 pts while having only 150 speed (orks have the same speed, can you spell R-A-E-P?).
Desolator - Well, basically this is an overpriced slow Acheron, with some torps (that are useless on their own). Probably the worst BB in the game. 233 pts and 150 speed.

Now I'd like to add some thoughts about speed (feel free to disagree and express you opinion on this):
The fleet is as fast as the slowest ships in it. So taking speedier ships while you also have some slow ones doesn't do any good. You still might want the speedier ones for some reasons other than speed, that's a different story. It's also possible to make it work to an extent by operating them in different groups, with slower ships having to kite more or provide really long range support essentially. But overall I feel that a good approach is to build for 225, 188 or 150 (well not really) speed.



225 speed fleet

You don't really have much choice here imo. Hellbringer mk 2 is bad and the only cruiser with 225 speed is Slaughter. So 2 ships really.

600 pts
3 slaughters + 1 hellbringer mk1 for support = 143*3 + 116 = 545 pts. Leaves room for 1 escort for scouting (camo + augurs + emissions dissipator).
1 slaughter + 4 hellbringers = 143 + 116*4 = 607. Overshoots the 600 pt by 7 points, which is the difference between mk 1 and mk2. A case to have 1 mk2 I guess.
2 slaughters and 2 hellbringers are not really a brawler or a carrier fleet, so imo not an option, also they leave a lot of points.
4 hellbringers mk i @ 464 pts for max launchbays and 3 escorts (meh)

Another option I would like to mention here is 3 Slaughters + Acheron for really long range support. Even though Acheron is 188 speed only I feel like with 15k range on lances and camo you can make it work, essentially as a "sniper" ship, relocating with
emissions dissipator if needed. That would be 143*3 + 162 = 591 points. Worthless vs Eldar though.

700 pts
3 slaughters + 2 hellbringers mk 1 = 661 pts. Also 1 escort for scouting.
3 slaughters + sniper acheron + 1 hellbringer mk 2 is exactly 700 pts.
You can also go 4 hellbringers mk 1 for 8 launchbays with 1 slaughter, which leaves you at 607 points and 97 points to fill with escorts. meh.
Or a half assed 3 hellbringers 2 slaughters approach, but 6 launchbays is not nearly enough to scare anyone at 700 pts.


188 speed fleet

Most of the chaos ships fall here. This is dangerously close to imp and ork speeds though, and imps with mezoa will be really difficult to kite.

600 pts.

3 carnages + styx = 595 pts. Good long range macro fleet with carrier support.
2 carnages + slaughter + styx for 599. Slaughter is the forward ship taking damage at 6k or less if needed, likely Nurgle with some upgrades for better tanking.
2 Styx + 2 hellbringers mk 1. Maxed carrier fleet with 12 launchbays at 588 pts.
2 Acheron + 2 hellbringers mk 1. Lance sniping with carrier cover. 556 pts.

700 pts
2 Styx + 2 hellbringers mk 1 + hellbringer mk2 @ 697 pts. Not that much better than 600p carrier setup.
2 Styx + 2 Carnages at 634 or 2 Slaughters @ 642 pts for a mixed fleet.
2 Carnages + 2 Acherons @ 602 pts and a lot of points wasted on escorts. Good long range power though.
Not possible to fit in 2 BCs and 3 Cruisers even in case of the cheaper ones.
???


150 speed fleet

Well, just for fun. I won't even try to use Desolator.

600 pts
Despoler + styx + hellbringer at 10 lauchbays (less than styx setup) @546 pts
Despoiler + 2 Acheron for 576 pts. Pretty damn powerful lance fleet, unfortuantely too slow and not really able to kite because of Despoiler's prow based lance weaponry.
Despoiler + 2 Slaughters/Carnages as a brawling fleet @ 531-539.

700 pts.
Despoiler + 3x Slaughters for 681. Well, that might actualy be scary enough to work.
Despoiler + 3x Carnages for more or less the same.
Despoiler + 2x Styx @ 608 pt, still 12 lauchbays just as 600pt styx + hellbringer setup, looks like it's the max for chaos.
Despoiler + 2 Acheron + Hellbringer Mk2 for a maxed lance fleet @ 685 pts.



The most viable comps (imo):

600 pt:
225 speed - 3 Slaughters and 1 hellbringer (+ scout escort). Good for hunting Eldar, can execute some hit & run attacks on imps, will probably die to orks in a horrible way. Good vs most chaos comps too.
225 speed - 1 Slaughter + 1 Hellbringer mk 2 + 3 Hellbringers mk 1. Would rather try this vs Orks @ 225 speed. Or maybe just go 4 MK 1 + escorts (that's a lot of escorts though)
188 speed - 3 Carnages + Styx or 2 Carnages + Slaughter + Styx. Good ranged power and carrier support, not that good at kiting though.
188/225 speed - 2 Styx + 2 hellbringers MK 1 as the most efficient carrier fleet in terms of the number of launchbays
188/225 speed - 3 Slaughters and sniper Acheron or 3 Carnaged and sniper Acheron


700 pt:
225 speed - 3 slaughters + 2 hellbringers mk 1 + scout
188/225 speed - 3 slaughters + sniper acheron + hellbringer mk 2
188 speed - 2 Styx + 2 Carnages
150/225 speed Despoiler + 3x Slaughters


I'm using a speedy tactic mostly based on hellbringers mk1 and slaughters atm, but I'm sill not sure about:
1) Slaughters or Carnages. Slaughters overall are a better ship imo, but carnages are kinda more suited for long range engagements and also cost a bit less allowing you to fit in some more expensive ships at times.
2) For BCs, 2x Styx or Styx + Acheron. Acheron might be useful for fire support in some comps, but 2x Styx will allow to get the most powerful carrier fleet.

Huh, that was a wall of text. Will post some thoughts on upgrades and favours later. Thoughts?
Last edited by MadDemiurg on 02 May 2016, 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Bosie
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Bosie » 02 May 2016, 20:36

For both points games I take the following:

1xStyx
It's built to support the fleet at range with fighters and skills. The bombers can add a nice bit of burst damage during the fight. The favor is to help silence enemies and to aid in them fleeing the battle. The extra turrets are to help with taking down enemy ordnance.

I then run 2x Carnage and 1x Slaughter.
The Slaughter is my brawler, it runs MoN for the 3DPS at close range along with multiple survival upgrades and taunt.
The Carnages support the Slaughter with their silences and shield transfers. The have the accuracy upgrade as they run around the 6k mark from the enemy.

For the 700pt games I tend to throw in a pair of Idolators. Because I can. They are shit, like the rest of the Chaos escorts but I might as well take them. They are built for pure damage, which considering how poor they perform is quite a waste.

To see the fleet in action watch any of my Chaos BFG:A videos.
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MadDemiurg » 02 May 2016, 21:12

Bosie wrote:For both points games I take the following:

1xStyx
It's built to support the fleet at range with fighters and skills. The bombers can add a nice bit of burst damage during the fight. The favor is to help silence enemies and to aid in them fleeing the battle. The extra turrets are to help with taking down enemy ordnance.

I then run 2x Carnage and 1x Slaughter.
The Slaughter is my brawler, it runs MoN for the 3DPS at close range along with multiple survival upgrades and taunt.
The Carnages support the Slaughter with their silences and shield transfers. The have the accuracy upgrade as they run around the 6k mark from the enemy.

For the 700pt games I tend to throw in a pair of Idolators. Because I can. They are shit, like the rest of the Chaos escorts but I might as well take them. They are built for pure damage, which considering how poor they perform is quite a waste..

To see the fleet in action watch any of my Chaos BFG:A videos.


I'm using 3 Slaughters atm, but that leaves me rather unhappy with my 600p setup. I can use 3 Slaughters + helbringer + escort or 3 Slaughters + Acheron (but it's bad vs Eldar). I'm quite happy with 700p setups I can do though, like 3 slaughters + 2 hellbringers + iconoclast. I'm also quite happy with overall 225 speed it gives (not counting Acheron, which has +3k range and camo and tries to stay the fuck away).

Btw, targeting matrix on your carnages looks a bit wasted w/o range upgrade to me. It's still 25% extra dps at 9k, but you're not guaranteed to be exactly at 9k and with range you would still deal pretty solid damage at 12k.

It looks like my approach is a bit different, basically I employ running silent as my go to order, so I have camo on all ships and shield overcharge + augur disruptor on slaughters, the idea being you can approach the enemy fleet unnoticed and then do a chaos variation on a hit & run attack :D, blinding the enemy fleet with disruptors and focusing down outlying ships and then disengaging from a brawl. Doesn't work that well vs good Orks though. I have Nurgle on some ships and Slaanesh on the others. Also works fairly well vs Eldar as you can ambush them yourself with camo and then buy yourself time with overcharge and disruption if needed and waste them with your 225 speed and Slaaneshi stuff.
Last edited by MadDemiurg on 02 May 2016, 21:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Deuzerre » 02 May 2016, 21:21

I have a few Mk1 with MoK, shield overcharge, additional lightning strikes, additional HP, additional shields and shields reload to counter eldar at high level. The shield overcharge, if set to automatic, can "tank" one burst of pulsar so it really wastes the eldar time, and the ship's speed + good lightning strikes makes it good at breaking some eldar big boys' engines.

Otherwise, at high level, I only get a light cruiser with MoT to re-hide my fleet, if some points are there. Either a mark 1 or 2.

(off to bed, will write the rest tomorrow)
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Bosie » 02 May 2016, 21:21

MadDemiurg wrote:I'm using 3 Slaughters atm, but that leaves me rather unhappy with my 600p setup. I can use 3 Slaughters + helbringer + escort or 3 Slaughters + Acheron (but it's bad vs Eldar). I'm quite happy with 700p setups I can do though, like 3 slaughters + 2 hellbringers + iconoclast.

Btw, targeting matrix on your carnages looks a bit wasted w/o range upgrade to me. It's still 25% extra dps at 9k, but you're not guaranteed to be exactly at 9k and with range you would still deal pretty solid damage at 12k.

It looks like my approach is a bit different, basically I employ running silent as my go to order, so I have camo on all ships and shield overcharge + augur disruptor on slaughters, the idea being you can approach the enemy fleet unnoticed and then do a chaos variation on a hit & run attack :D, blinding the enemy fleet with disruptors and focusing down outlying ships and then disengaging from a brawl. Doesn't work that well vs good Orks though. I have Nurgle on some ships and Slaanesh on the others.


The matrix is to get more consistent hits from 6k+, this in turn buffs my DPS.

I used to run 3 Slaughters, but changed it up as MoN no longer stacks and I quite like the extra staying power I get from the Carnages.

I'd rather use brace for impact for the 20% damage mitigation and the 20% penalty to accuracy the enemy get. This combined with the targeting matrix allows me to trade with other fleets and come out on top.

I also avoid silent running as I don't understand how it can work. You'll still end up being seen by the enemy and you may get one or two shots off before they start hitting you back. If Chaos had high burst damage then I could see it working, but as we are a low but constant DPS race I don't think it's the way forward. I'm happy to be shown that I'm wrong, then I'll happily change my style to abuse it.
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby MadDemiurg » 02 May 2016, 21:52

Well, running silent indeed does not cover you when you apply continuous fire, but it helps to get in and out if you hold fire (you disappear almost instantly). It's also not broken by launching bombers or nurgle dot, so you can have some fun with that. Also can be used to do some unpredictable ramming. Generally I try to exploit positioning flanking the enemy formation so I can concentrate fire and the enemy can not (running silent helps here as well). I use brace depending on the enemy too though. Stealth is quite essential in games vs Eldar however as it makes them come in range to actually detect you vs firing at you from 9k.

As for slaughters vs Carnages, well, with your build you could get +3k range on Slaughter and get more or less the same ship with -1 upgrade but +37 speed and a bit extra broadside firepower, costing 4 more points though. I'm still not sold on either one.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Marwynn » 03 May 2016, 15:10

It may not be optimal, but I run a Despoiler and 3 Hellbringers that's exactly 600 points. I find it best as a recovery fleet. 2 Styx and 2 Hellbringers actually put out a bit more (12 vs 10 ordnance bays) and the Styx are faster.

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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Deuzerre » 03 May 2016, 15:33

I've never been a fan of the styx. Sure, it's good, but it costs a lot more than the archeon while being quite dependant on the enemy build to be efficient.
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby Bosie » 03 May 2016, 15:43

Deuzerre wrote:I've never been a fan of the styx. Sure, it's good, but it costs a lot more than the archeon while being quite dependant on the enemy build to be efficient.


The Styx is a pure support ship, whilst there are arguments against using an BC for a support ship I've found it very useful.
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Re: Chaos high level builds (600p, 700p), ships and upgrades discussion

Postby clench » 03 May 2016, 16:00

I've been running 3 slaughters + 1 Hades or 2 Slaughter 1 Hades 1 Carrier Hellbringer

MoN + AP, +shield, +hull, the rest of the upgrades are gravy. Beeing leaning toward picking up boost efficient and emissions.

Shield overcharge + MWJ on Slaughter

Shield overcharge + MWJ + Taunt on Hades

Beacon/Probe on Hellbringer

This is more of a Typhus theme fleet than actual competitive build. Bosie definitely has a better competitive build, but I still think Slaughter + Hades with AP make a good combo.


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