How to play as chaos?

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Deuzerre
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Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Deuzerre » 01 May 2016, 11:28

Lucifronsun wrote:
Deuzerre wrote:WIth range upgrade, the lance does have a range of 9000.


Yes, and it does 12 damage every 12 seconds, for whopping one dps, with a long break in between damage spurts.
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Like all lances, and you're forgetting the missile pod. the range allows it to survive and continually deal its adamage during the battle, unlike most escorts. You can set it to work automatically and using target priority to focus your fires. You can also activate the FIRE AT WILL to increase crit chance. And a range of 9000 on an escort that always hits is great.

The ship is cheap and a good filler.


The ship is cheap, by virtue of being an escort. It's not a good ship, but you're just using it because you can't use those points for real ships, so that doesn't really matter in that case.

Filler. Hello. Didn't say that you had to make a fleet of that ship.

It's reasonably fast, 200 HP, and if you upgrade it with range upgrade, spotting range upgrade and shield damage increase, it can be both a scout

Yes, upgraded escorts can be used as scouts. For scouting purposes, you'd probably get better mileage out of the iconoclast because it has 262 speed as opposed to 225.

And less hit points, so some ships can literally obliterate it in one go. Like pulsars.

or a fire support weapon that isn't "great" but is far from bad too.

It doesn't have the firepower to deserve the title of fire support. It's a bad ship, all the chaos escorts are particularly bad, but I'll agree that it does hold the dubious honor of being top of the shit heap when it comes to chaos escorts.

The other ones are very bad, and this one is acceptable in long range fire support. Fire support means it complements the fleet, not that it acts like a baby LC.
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Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby duck_bird » 01 May 2016, 13:48

Lucifronsun wrote:A whole bunch of doodoo


Hot damn, son. I'm sharing my personal take on chaos.

It's all subjective buddy
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Lucifronsun
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Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Lucifronsun » 01 May 2016, 15:24

duck_bird wrote:
Lucifronsun wrote:A whole bunch of doodoo


Was that necessary?

Hot damn, son. I'm sharing my personal take on chaos.

It's all subjective buddy


You're more than free to have your own personal thoughts, but on a "how to play" thread, people are looking for advice on how to play. I'm doing quality assurance on the advice in here, so as to not see people led astray.

Deuzerre wrote:Like all lances, and you're forgetting the missile pod.


The missile pods are entirely forgettable, and could use some changes.

the range allows it to survive and continually deal its adamage during the battle, unlike most escorts.


Most other escorts occupy a different purpose. Sure it can "survive", but thats largely due to no one actually caring about anything it actually does. Faction depending, fleets wont even bother to kill escorts unless they're right in front of them.

You can set it to work automatically and using target priority to focus your fires. You can also activate the FIRE AT WILL to increase crit chance. And a range of 9000 on an escort that always hits is great.


Yes, and? The fact that it always hits doesn't make its damage worth anything of note, and crit chance is worthless on lances, don't even bother with the crit upgrade.

Filler. Hello. Didn't say that you had to make a fleet of that ship.


Nor did I ever imply as such.

And less hit points, so some ships can literally obliterate it in one go. Like pulsars.


A pulsar is going to do that regardless of your escort, but I'd say if your opponent wasted a pulsar cd on one, that's a good sign for you.

The other ones are very bad, and this one is acceptable in long range fire support. Fire support means it complements the fleet, not that it acts like a baby LC.


All of them are bad, the chaos escorts all suck, and there's no reason to even acknowledge their existence if you can avoid doing so. If you're arguing that it's the top of the shit pile, then you'll get no argument from me, but that's a very dubious honor.

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Deuzerre
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Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Deuzerre » 01 May 2016, 15:35

No discussion is possible I see. Meh.

I hate blanket statements, and you make so many of your arguments are abolutes based on personal opinion that I see there's no point in even trying to agree.

Let's agree to disagree.
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TheGoldenChicken
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Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby TheGoldenChicken » 01 May 2016, 15:39

One mistake I made frequently when I was a noob playing chaos: Getting detected. Seriously, always ALWAYS seek to be a dot on the opponents screen. With the insane burst that a well placed macro barrage can put out, you do not want to be hit by them, if you are detected throughout the whole game, they will chip away at you almost as much as you do them, and eventually are going to force you into a brawl where you'll have too little health to prevail.

The whole point of 99% of all chaos fleets is to stay undetected and stay at range. Keep skirting about the enemy and fire your lances and launch your bombers. Sooner or later in longer games however, you're going to make a mistake, and at this inevitable point, it is imperative that you are better prepared for the inevitable brawl than your opponent. Chaos suck in brawls, but if an imperial player enters a brawl with your fresh ships, while he himself has a crippled fleet, you can win.

I find that many of my victories are actually won in brawls that I've won due to my multiple "alpha strikes".

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Bosie
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Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Bosie » 01 May 2016, 16:08

Against Imperial and Ork fleets kite them at first, then once you have the damage advantage, move in to finish them off.

Against Eldar, you're generally fucked if the other player knows what they are doing.

Against Chaos if they are running more carriers than you, then you will tend to have the lance advantage and will want to close on them as soon as you can.

Stay away from damage upgrades/skills and concentrate on tank and area control. Chain stasis like it's going out of fashion.
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Deuzerre
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Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Deuzerre » 01 May 2016, 16:13

Against eldar, just get the overshield, double boost, mark ofnurgle/khorne and focus on macro-weapons.

Overshield on autocast will block a single pulsar focus
Double boost to get close to them and force them into melee
Khorne + an additional lightning strike to lightning strike them on LC (easy to reach and deal damage)
Nurgle to force melee
Macro weapons go through shields more easily.

And aim at their engines.

Easy win, with minimal losses.
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Lucifronsun
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Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Lucifronsun » 01 May 2016, 16:25

Deuzerre wrote:No discussion is possible I see. Meh.


Why?

I hate blanket statements, and you make so many of your arguments are abolutes based on personal opinion that I see there's no point


You could put forth evidence to challenge these supposed absolutes, instead of saying you think something is good and providing no backup for it. If your arguments have a good foundation, surely there would be proof to support that, yes?

You put forth that you think the lances are good, I put forth that I disagree, and that they have 60 dpm, which barely covers half the shield of a light cruiser over the course of a minute.

You put forth the possible 9k range of the lances making them valuable, I disagreed, and told you that the very poor damage of the lance means it barely registers as a ship in the eyes of most, on the battlefield that is.

I also stated that due to singularly being equipped with missile launchers, a very under performing weapon, chaos escorts currently have the shortest end of the stick possible.

You can disagree all you want, as is your right, but I won't consider that an argument until it has some evidence to support it. Which, as it stands, you'd be very hard pressed to provide in this case.

in even trying to agree.


Wait what?

Let's agree to disagree.


Not to be mean, but no thank you, I don't consider that a decent end to an discussion.

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Deuzerre
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Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Deuzerre » 01 May 2016, 16:36

Lances provide reliable, constant damage at medium-long range with upgrade.
That ship is reasonably tough (200HP, 50 armour all around)
That ship is reasonably fast and maneuverable
That ship has acceptable firepower (lances + 360° missiles)
And it is cheap to add to the lot.

This makes it an pleasant, albeit not necessary, addition to a fleet.

What you're saying is that it is unilaterally bad. I really fail to see why you consider it that bad, and apart from saying that lances are bad (it's a disputed fact) and that its main firepower is in the frontal arc (Reasonable argument dependent on the use you make of a ship. Considering it can have medium-long range, I don't consider this to be a true issue), you really made no point that would prove that it should be avoided at all costs.

It is not a god sent. It is not über powerful. It isn't trash. But it's reasonable, fair and balanced for the investment.
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Lucifronsun
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Re: How to play as chaos?

Postby Lucifronsun » 01 May 2016, 17:02

Deuzerre wrote:Lances provide reliable, constant damage at medium-long range with upgrade.


Lances in general, yes, this lance in particular, no. 60 DPM amounts to a visual effect.

That ship is reasonably tough (200HP, 50 armour all around)


That's the escort standard, it's not any more durable than all the other escorts of the 200 hp class

That ship is reasonably fast and maneuverable


By virtue of being an escort.

That ship has acceptable firepower (lances + 360° missiles)


You're not taking into account the actual firepower, and instead are just naming the armaments that it has. The lance has 60dpm, a measly 1 dps, and with the funky way the missiles work, they're likely pulling even less than that against armor. They are also 270*, not 360.

And it is cheap to add to the lot.


Once more, by virtue of being an escort.

This makes it an pleasant, albeit not necessary, addition to a fleet.


I put forth that the poor damage output of the vessel, in addition to the fact that it has no special properties to set it apart despite the poor damage, ranks it relatively low on the escort totem pole.

What you're saying is that it is unilaterally bad. I really fail to see why you consider it that bad


I've said repeatedly, over and over again, why it is bad. You can look at the answer above this, the very poor damage output of the vessel, and the lack of any redeeming features not found on other vessels, makes it a bad ship.

and apart from saying that lances are bad (it's a disputed fact)


This lance in particular is bad, it's slow firing and manages up to 60 dpm raw, 45 dpm against hull.

and that its main firepower is in the frontal arc (Reasonable argument dependent on the use you make of a ship. Considering it can have medium-long range, I don't consider this to be a true issue)


If the damage was respectable, it wouldn't be an issue.

you really made no point that would prove that it should be avoided at all costs.


You refuse to look at the point, no matter how much I put it in my post. So I will very clearly state it afterwards in every one of my answers.

It is not a god sent. It is not über powerful. It isn't trash.


It's a bad ship, most of the escorts are bad ships, but this one in particular is pretty bad, like the rest of the chaos escorts. It has 60 dpm raw, an absolutely tiny amount, 45 dpm against hull, which is even smaller. It has no redeeming qualities that are not available to every other escort. Its main weapon is of a class that under performs very hard, and which likely pulls less than 1 dps, most certainly less than 1 dps against hull.

But it's reasonable, fair and balanced for the investment.


It provides little to nothing combat wise for the investment, with it's main function being scouting, a job at which it provides no benefit not afforded to another ship.


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