Why must Nurgle be the mayor space god here ? Give to all chaos ships Void-Locust Cloudswarm ?

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StarSauron
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Re: Why must Nurgle be the mayor space god here ? Give to all chaos ships Void-Locust Cloudswarm ?

Postby StarSauron » 25 June 2016, 05:09

Why not change Void-Locust Cloudswarm to = Void-Demon Cloudswarm, so its avaible for all Chaos Ships '?
In my opinion this stuff should be not a favout but Upgrade or Ability.

Nurgle should instead get that Demon Strike from Khorne and maybe 10% more HP on Ships.
Khorne should get replaced Demon Strike with ram damage 20 or 50%.

So you can for sure try other favours on your ships.

Its just Void-Locust Cloudswarm force me to play Nurgle.

ErikModi
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Re: Why must Nurgle be the mayor space god here ? Give to all chaos ships Void-Locust Cloudswarm ?

Postby ErikModi » 30 June 2016, 14:19

Temp crits are still very useful. Either the opponent has to burn their Emergency Repairs to fix it (when they may not have hull damage worth repairing), or live with it until they do have hull damage. And if they've already burned their repairs, they're stuck with it until the timer resets. And as mentioned, Lightning Strikes can cause fire and Hull Breach crits, the latter is solid up-front damage, the former decent damage-over-time. In playing Space Marines, a few good lightning strikes landing Fire crits can cripple or destroy a ship in short order, since they stack up to four times (it seems). A ship with four fire crits has it's hull vanish at an alarming rate, and that can be a great way to take a ship out of the fight. So no, the Khorne favor is far from useless as it stands (though if the Eldar can Perma-Crit with Khaine, Chaos should be able to with Khorne).

That having been said, I think the "Void Locusts" could be extended to all Chaos ships. One of the favors you could get in the tabletop campaign as Chaos was essentially daemons surrounding one of your ships, attacking any ship that got to close as if by a squadron of bombers. It only lasted for that battle, though, so adding it as a permanent upgrade might be a bit overpowered. However, abilities didn't have durations and cooldowns on tabletop, so that favor worked for the entire battle. With the right duration/cooldown, it could be an interesting and viable alternative to bombs for Chaos ships.

Tying this in with another discussion, perhaps favors and upgrades for Chaos ships should be reworked from the ground up. Each Favor provides two passive benefits, instead of an active and passive.

Favored of Khorne
Mark of Khorne: Troop Value increased by X.
World Eaters Space Marines: Enemy troop value decreased by Y during boarding actions/Lightning Strikes/assault boat/boarding torpedo attacks.

Favored of Slaanesh
Mark of Slaanesh: "Siren of Slaanesh" effect.
Emperor's Children Space Marines: Enemy troop value decreased by Y during boarding actions/Lightning Strikes/assault boat/boarding torpedo.

Favored of Nurgle
Mark of Nurgle: Ship's hull increased by X.
Death Guard Space Marines: Enemy troop value decreased by Y during boarding actions/Lightning Strikes/assault boat/boarding torpedo attacks.

Favored of Tzeentch
Mark of Tzeentch: Okay, no idea what to do with this one. In tabletop, Mark of Tzeentch "just" gave you a reroll, which let you reroll a Command Check for going on Special Orders. That isn't a thing in this game, so no real idea what to replace it with, and seems like the devs had a similar conundrum. Maybe reducing the cooldowns of special orders on the ship, or letting you use two orders at the same time? No idea.
Thousand Sons Space Marines: Enemy troop value decreased by Y during boarding actions/Lightning Strikes/assault boat/boarding torpedo attacks.

Then, maybe a Skill for Chaos ships that's locked out until you pick a Favor, with the Skill changing based on which Favor you took:

Khorne: Daemonic Lightning Strike: Make two assault actions when using Lightning Strike instead of one, OR Lightning Strikes can perma-crit.

Slaanesh: Slaanesh's Promise effect.

Nurgle: Plagueship: For the duration of the effect, the ship is immune to boarding/assault actions, OR Void-Locusts effect.

Tzeentch: Chaos field: For the duration of the effect, enemy accuracy is reduced by X against this ship (stacks with Brace for Impact).

Then, replace the current "Chaos Space Marines" Upgrade with "Elite Chaos Space Marines," maybe changing the name based on the Favor (Noise Marines for Slaanesh, Berserkers for Khorne, etc.), which adds more Troop Value. And personally, I'd rename "Additional Teleportarium" to "Chaos Terminators," but that's just personal taste.

This would allow you to really build a Chaos Space Marine fleet, something a few people have asked about around here, with the ability to close in and fight toe-to-toe. One could also roll Void-Locusts (if that is no longer part of Nurgle favor) into another skill, probably replacing one of the existing Bomb skills.

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Re: Why must Nurgle be the mayor space god here ? Give to all chaos ships Void-Locust Cloudswarm ?

Postby Cryhavok » 30 June 2016, 14:29

ErikModi wrote:Temp crits are still very useful. Either the opponent has to burn their Emergency Repairs to fix it (when they may not have hull damage worth repairing), or live with it until they do have hull damage. And if they've already burned their repairs, they're stuck with it until the timer resets. And as mentioned, Lightning Strikes can cause fire and Hull Breach crits, the latter is solid up-front damage, the former decent damage-over-time. In playing Space Marines, a few good lightning strikes landing Fire crits can cripple or destroy a ship in short order, since they stack up to four times (it seems). A ship with four fire crits has it's hull vanish at an alarming rate, and that can be a great way to take a ship out of the fight. So no, the Khorne favor is far from useless as it stands (though if the Eldar can Perma-Crit with Khaine, Chaos should be able to with Khorne).

That having been said, I think the "Void Locusts" could be extended to all Chaos ships. One of the favors you could get in the tabletop campaign as Chaos was essentially daemons surrounding one of your ships, attacking any ship that got to close as if by a squadron of bombers. It only lasted for that battle, though, so adding it as a permanent upgrade might be a bit overpowered. However, abilities didn't have durations and cooldowns on tabletop, so that favor worked for the entire battle. With the right duration/cooldown, it could be an interesting and viable alternative to bombs for Chaos ships.

Tying this in with another discussion, perhaps favors and upgrades for Chaos ships should be reworked from the ground up. Each Favor provides two passive benefits, instead of an active and passive.

Favored of Khorne
Mark of Khorne: Troop Value increased by X.
World Eaters Space Marines: Enemy troop value decreased by Y during boarding actions/Lightning Strikes/assault boat/boarding torpedo attacks.

Favored of Slaanesh
Mark of Slaanesh: "Siren of Slaanesh" effect.
Emperor's Children Space Marines: Enemy troop value decreased by Y during boarding actions/Lightning Strikes/assault boat/boarding torpedo.

Favored of Nurgle
Mark of Nurgle: Ship's hull increased by X.
Death Guard Space Marines: Enemy troop value decreased by Y during boarding actions/Lightning Strikes/assault boat/boarding torpedo attacks.

Favored of Tzeentch
Mark of Tzeentch: Okay, no idea what to do with this one. In tabletop, Mark of Tzeentch "just" gave you a reroll, which let you reroll a Command Check for going on Special Orders. That isn't a thing in this game, so no real idea what to replace it with, and seems like the devs had a similar conundrum. Maybe reducing the cooldowns of special orders on the ship, or letting you use two orders at the same time? No idea.
Thousand Sons Space Marines: Enemy troop value decreased by Y during boarding actions/Lightning Strikes/assault boat/boarding torpedo attacks.

Then, maybe a Skill for Chaos ships that's locked out until you pick a Favor, with the Skill changing based on which Favor you took:

Khorne: Daemonic Lightning Strike: Make two assault actions when using Lightning Strike instead of one, OR Lightning Strikes can perma-crit.

Slaanesh: Slaanesh's Promise effect.

Nurgle: Plagueship: For the duration of the effect, the ship is immune to boarding/assault actions, OR Void-Locusts effect.

Tzeentch: Chaos field: For the duration of the effect, enemy accuracy is reduced by X against this ship (stacks with Brace for Impact).

Then, replace the current "Chaos Space Marines" Upgrade with "Elite Chaos Space Marines," maybe changing the name based on the Favor (Noise Marines for Slaanesh, Berserkers for Khorne, etc.), which adds more Troop Value. And personally, I'd rename "Additional Teleportarium" to "Chaos Terminators," but that's just personal taste.

This would allow you to really build a Chaos Space Marine fleet, something a few people have asked about around here, with the ability to close in and fight toe-to-toe. One could also roll Void-Locusts (if that is no longer part of Nurgle favor) into another skill, probably replacing one of the existing Bomb skills.


The problem with this is that Chaos is not Chaos Space Marines. There isn't a chaos space marine faction in battlefleet gothic (computer or tabletop). Chaos is the analogue of the Imperial Navy, not the Adeptus Astartes. Your ships don't even have chaos space marines on them unless you take the upgrade. Centering the favors on traitor legions doesn't fit the lore of what this fleet is.

Also having all four favors have one ability that does the exact same thing as all the others would be lame. Having it do what an upgrade we already have does, would be lamer. The favors are supposed to be unique, not half clones of each other.

I do like your idea of skills that change based on what favor is taken though.
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Re: Why must Nurgle be the mayor space god here ? Give to all chaos ships Void-Locust Cloudswarm ?

Postby ErikModi » 30 June 2016, 14:53

Cryhavok wrote:
The problem with this is that Chaos is not Chaos Space Marines. There isn't a chaos space marine faction in battlefleet gothic (computer or tabletop). Chaos is the analogue of the Imperial Navy, not the Adeptus Astartes.


Yes and no. Chaos doesn't have a dedicated "Space Marine" faction like the Imperium does, because Chaos Space Marines use the same ships as the regular Chaos forces, something the Astartes are forbidden to do. Making a Chaos fleet a Chaos Space Marine fleet is perfectly viable, lorewise and tabletop (just pay the extra points for Chaos Space Marine crews on all your ships). Now, yeah, my idea has the downside of forcing everyone to be Chaos Space Marines, so it's not ideal.

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Cryhavok
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Re: Why must Nurgle be the mayor space god here ? Give to all chaos ships Void-Locust Cloudswarm ?

Postby Cryhavok » 30 June 2016, 15:05

ErikModi wrote:
Cryhavok wrote:
The problem with this is that Chaos is not Chaos Space Marines. There isn't a chaos space marine faction in battlefleet gothic (computer or tabletop). Chaos is the analogue of the Imperial Navy, not the Adeptus Astartes.


Yes and no. Chaos doesn't have a dedicated "Space Marine" faction like the Imperium does, because Chaos Space Marines use the same ships as the regular Chaos forces, something the Astartes are forbidden to do. Making a Chaos fleet a Chaos Space Marine fleet is perfectly viable, lorewise and tabletop (just pay the extra points for Chaos Space Marine crews on all your ships). Now, yeah, my idea has the downside of forcing everyone to be Chaos Space Marines, so it's not ideal.


Don't get me wrong, I am all for having more subfactions in the game. I would love it if we got the Space Marine Chapter treatment applied to chaos for all 9 traitor legions, plus some others like fallen angels, and some non-CSM options, where we assign a legion to our admirals before we even get started. (and the same thing for the Craftworlds, various battlefleets, Ork Waaghs, etc) But I am opposed to reducing a full faction to only a small subfaction within it.

If it stays true to the tabletop and the lore, the majority of ships in service to chaos are not space marine vessels. In the table top, they were an upgrade. In this game they are an upgrade. It would be cool if that upgrade gave interesting visual effects based on those marine's origins, but they shouldn't be much more than an upgrade in this.

I'll be happier when we have a fleet painter.
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Re: Why must Nurgle be the mayor space god here ? Give to all chaos ships Void-Locust Cloudswarm ?

Postby Harlequin » 04 July 2016, 20:51

StarSauron wrote:The other favour sounds good too, but somehow people take only this and its pretty logical.
It's the only upgrade than allows close combat.

So why only by Nurgle, why not that Void-Locust Cloudswarm to all chaos ships ?


it's okay for me, make me more individual, i play chaos since beta only with full slaanesh favor (no Nurgle^^)
and even my Eldar Fleet No.1 is complete Biel-Tan [except one Void Stalker, who is ulthwe Black because this ship has the name "Solitaire of Twilight" ^^] - (no Saim Hann, like all the others) and i like it, i am very unique to all the others because of that.
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Re: Why must Nurgle be the mayor space god here ? Give to all chaos ships Void-Locust Cloudswarm ?

Postby JorpA » 04 July 2016, 21:09

I all so run slaneesh or tzeentch on most of my ships. Nurgle only on slaughters and despoiler and im thinking to chance despoiler to be tzeentch it would be more pwerfull probably. I think Nurgle is good only on brawling ships like slaughter and i tought that it would be good on slow despoiler that gets from time to time surrounded. But actually tzeenth would be better to avoid getting surrounded and over run in the first place. Now that i have played lots of 2v2 games with random ally its actually quite rare to see chaos players wielding Nurgle ships other than slaughters for obvious reasons. Actually now that i think of it iv probably met more nun nurgle slaughters than nurgle anything else than slaughters in past few weeks.


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