Things we would like to see when chaos gets balance patch (buffs/nurfs)

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Demoulius
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Re: Things we would like to see when chaos gets balance patch (buffs/nurfs)

Postby Demoulius » 16 June 2016, 01:10

Cryhavok wrote:
Demoulius wrote:Missles are perfectly canon... Batteries represent a great number of weapon systems and missles/rockets are one of the things that they represent.


Macro weapons from the TT can be shells or missiles interchangable, but they behaved the same regardless. Nothing in the Tabletop had the same behavior as BFG:A's missile pods. If they were canon, they would behave no different than any other macro weapon. They don't, hence, they are not canon.

Demoulius wrote:I dont think AP shells need to go, as its gives Chaos an option if they want to go in a brawlers route. The Murder and Hades are some of the best brawlers in the game when you look at the damage output of their batteries. The only problem with them is that they dont follow the philosofy of the rest of the chaos fleet (long range lances and/or carriers) and thus run the risk of beeing isolated of the rest of the fleet.

That said I do agree that lowering armour by 25 instead of just reducing it to 25 would be a good move. To many things completly ignore as is right now :oops:


I have no real opinion on whether or not AP ammo should be left alone, changed or done away with. I just have alternate ideas that might be interesting to see.

The only change compared to macro batteries (whatever normal and plasma) and the missle turrets is the visual. Everything else is EXACTLY the same. The missle turrets follow the same rules that macro batteries do.

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Cryhavok
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Re: Things we would like to see when chaos gets balance patch (buffs/nurfs)

Postby Cryhavok » 16 June 2016, 01:36

Demoulius wrote:
Cryhavok wrote:
Demoulius wrote:Missles are perfectly canon... Batteries represent a great number of weapon systems and missles/rockets are one of the things that they represent.


Macro weapons from the TT can be shells or missiles interchangable, but they behaved the same regardless. Nothing in the Tabletop had the same behavior as BFG:A's missile pods. If they were canon, they would behave no different than any other macro weapon. They don't, hence, they are not canon.

Demoulius wrote:I dont think AP shells need to go, as its gives Chaos an option if they want to go in a brawlers route. The Murder and Hades are some of the best brawlers in the game when you look at the damage output of their batteries. The only problem with them is that they dont follow the philosofy of the rest of the chaos fleet (long range lances and/or carriers) and thus run the risk of beeing isolated of the rest of the fleet.

That said I do agree that lowering armour by 25 instead of just reducing it to 25 would be a good move. To many things completly ignore as is right now :oops:


I have no real opinion on whether or not AP ammo should be left alone, changed or done away with. I just have alternate ideas that might be interesting to see.

The only change compared to macro batteries (whatever normal and plasma) and the missle turrets is the visual. Everything else is EXACTLY the same. The missle turrets follow the same rules that macro batteries do.


Except for the extras they have like homing.

To quote the "Codex Answers Compiled" thread:

RedDevilCG wrote:
MISSILE POD PROJECTILES BEHAVIOUR

chaos missile launcher projectiles (as useless as they are) sometimes lock on their target and alter their path. Is it pre-determined when they're fired whether they lock on or not, or do they lock on if they fly close enough to their intended target?


Due to Gameplay balance difficulties, we fitted Chaos ships with Missile Pods (Which are fluff, I recall : Macro-weapons are technically an assortiment of various weaponries depending on the model, and world of construction, etc...). Missile Pods projectiles are then homing. Unlike other Macro-weapons, if the game calculated a "hit", the projectile will track the target and hit it. If it calculated a miss, it will not lock on target and fly past it. In terms of gameplay, it is a really tiny advantage over classic macro-weapons : A hit is assured, impossible to dodge, and a miss can still land on another ship.


I emphasized the important part so you don't get distracted by where he says the difference is fluff and then explains how the don't work exactly the same.
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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Things we would like to see when chaos gets balance patch (buffs/nurfs)

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 17 June 2016, 00:11

Cryhavok wrote:
Demoulius wrote:
Cryhavok wrote:

I emphasized the important part so you don't get distracted by where he says the difference is fluff and then explains how the don't work exactly the same.


Does that upset you so much? I think missile launchers as they are now, fit very nicely into chaos lineup, they are a bit more reliable than standard macros at larger distances, when ship manoeuvering affects enemy's accuracy more.

Even if they aren't perfectly canon they don't make a world of difference, and we have some diversity. If they fit (hypothetically) Space Marine ships with lances, that would make a massive difference. But a weapon that has basically the same effect with slightly different accuracy system? I don't think so.

Btw
chaos missile launcher projectiles (as useless as they are) sometimes lock on their target and alter their path. Is it pre-determined when they're fired whether they lock on or not, or do they lock on if they fly close enough to their intended target?

I wrote that, but that was before the patch when missile launchers did 3 dmg. The "useless" part does not apply anymore.
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Cryhavok
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Re: Things we would like to see when chaos gets balance patch (buffs/nurfs)

Postby Cryhavok » 17 June 2016, 00:55

Ahzek Ahriman wrote:
Cryhavok wrote:
Demoulius wrote:


Does that upset you so much? I think missile launchers as they are now, fit very nicely into chaos lineup, they are a bit more reliable than standard macros at larger distances, when ship manoeuvering affects enemy's accuracy more.

Even if they aren't perfectly canon they don't make a world of difference, and we have some diversity. If they fit (hypothetically) Space Marine ships with lances, that would make a massive difference. But a weapon that has basically the same effect with slightly different accuracy system? I don't think so.


First, that wasn't a reply to you, so I am not sure where you are coming from.

Second, it doesn't upset me at all that they work that way. However, the person I was responding to was insisting that they functioned no differently than standard macro weapons and the only difference was fluff. I prefer people make informed decisions about things and know precisely how things function, so rather than leaving him uninformed when he insisted on something that was patently not correct, I felt he should know the truth.

I have no feelings on the matter beyond what is true and what isn't. How the developers decide to balance the game, and if it involves the removal of the missile pods is not something I care about one way or another. I don't find it something worth making an emotional investment in enough to form an opinion. My lack of opinion on the matter doesn't change the facts about how they function.

I will however admit that any argument about whether or not something is canon is entirely frivolous. Especially when we are talking about Chaos, or the translation from one medium to another.
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Re: Things we would like to see when chaos gets balance patch (buffs/nurfs)

Postby Demoulius » 17 June 2016, 04:23

Batteries when they hit make some very weird angles when their shells fire towards the targets. I read the text you underlined and still see only the most minute difference between macroes batteries and the missles. The game still decides first if it hits or not. If it hits, hurrah the shell/missle travels to the target and hits it. If it doesent, it goes wide.

I guess the 'tracking' comes into play if an enemy suddenly has a huge burst of speed, flies outside of max range or uses an abilities like MWJ or the Eldar speed boost. Well ok, fair enough so it has a very tiny advantage compared to normal batteries then. Aside from this it still follows all the rules that other battery weapons follow.

Its a mechanic brought into the game because its an rts, not a TT game. Dont see why this would be a problem really.... Its not like missles are breaking the game or anything :P

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Re: Things we would like to see when chaos gets balance patch (buffs/nurfs)

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 17 June 2016, 12:51

Cryhavok wrote:
Ahzek Ahriman wrote:
Cryhavok wrote:


Does that upset you so much? I think missile launchers as they are now, fit very nicely into chaos lineup, they are a bit more reliable than standard macros at larger distances, when ship manoeuvering affects enemy's accuracy more.

Even if they aren't perfectly canon they don't make a world of difference, and we have some diversity. If they fit (hypothetically) Space Marine ships with lances, that would make a massive difference. But a weapon that has basically the same effect with slightly different accuracy system? I don't think so.


First, that wasn't a reply to you, so I am not sure where you are coming from.

Second, it doesn't upset me at all that they work that way. However, the person I was responding to was insisting that they functioned no differently than standard macro weapons and the only difference was fluff. I prefer people make informed decisions about things and know precisely how things function, so rather than leaving him uninformed when he insisted on something that was patently not correct, I felt he should know the truth.

I have no feelings on the matter beyond what is true and what isn't. How the developers decide to balance the game, and if it involves the removal of the missile pods is not something I care about one way or another. I don't find it something worth making an emotional investment in enough to form an opinion. My lack of opinion on the matter doesn't change the facts about how they function.

I will however admit that any argument about whether or not something is canon is entirely frivolous. Especially when we are talking about Chaos, or the translation from one medium to another.


I didn't mean any offence to you, and I know you wanted to clear up things about the official canonicity. I thought you may want to stick to the canon as much as possible thoguh, which even if you did, is not a bad thing either way.

By the way, indeed Warhammer 40k is so messed up, especially technology-wise, that some obvious things turn out not so obvious.
For instance simple maintenance procedures and protocols being called "rituals" by AdMech, and advanced computers as "machine spirits".
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Re: Things we would like to see when chaos gets balance patch (buffs/nurfs)

Postby Spector » 17 June 2016, 20:38

Ahzek Ahriman wrote:By the way, indeed Warhammer 40k is so messed up, especially technology-wise, that some obvious things turn out not so obvious.
For instance simple maintenance procedures and protocols being called "rituals" by AdMech, and advanced computers as "machine spirits".


Well not really "messed up", the lore is quite clear. They have lost knowledge from the Age of Technology(15k-25k), so just like a caveman would call a lighter: pocket fire, Imperials call AI's machine spirits.

No wonder Blood Ravens say: "Knowledge is power, guard it well!
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Cryhavok
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Re: Things we would like to see when chaos gets balance patch (buffs/nurfs)

Postby Cryhavok » 17 June 2016, 20:41

Spector wrote:No wonder Blood Ravens say: "Knowledge is power, guard it well!


That actually translates to: "Everyone else is stupid, don't tell them we are heretics" :P
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Re: Things we would like to see when chaos gets balance patch (buffs/nurfs)

Postby Crnyo » 18 June 2016, 22:00

Hmm I thought those expressions and some other stuff in latin like names of organizations served to convey the image of "theocratic roman empire in space".

Instead the intended message is that humans are backwards and Adeptus Mechanicus is keeping rest of the humanity in dark for their own good.
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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Things we would like to see when chaos gets balance patch (buffs/nurfs)

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 18 June 2016, 22:13

Crnyo wrote:Hmm I thought those expressions and some other stuff in latin like names of organizations served to convey the image of "theocratic roman empire in space".

Instead the intended message is that humans are backwards and Adeptus Mechanicus is keeping rest of the humanity in dark for their own good.


AdMechs are in the dark themselves. Horus Heresy and earlier incursions of machines against humanity led to a loss of literally tens of thousands of years of technological knowledge and progress.

Let me point you to the nice explanation of the situation AdMech is in.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus

Scroll down to the section "Why everything is so Grimdark" and read through it.

You can say a lot of stuff about 4chan but in this particular case, they got it spot on and I do believe it'll let you understand too.
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