IN - Which favour do you favour?

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clench
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Re: IN - Which favour do you favour?

Postby clench » 05 May 2016, 17:31

aprg wrote:
clench wrote:Their DPS and HP/Shields aren't quite on the level on a cruiser. You can get by with them, but a cruisers and BC generally have twice the firepower and more hp/shields.


The survivability isn't so bad because of their cost; a Dauntless has 600 hull and 100 shield and costs ~67% of a Dictator cruiser, which has 800 hull and 200 shields; in other words, 67% of the cost for 70% of the survivability, that ratio actually favours the Dauntless. Plus it makes Hull and Shield Upgrades on the Dauntless quite cost-effective.

(Granted, the Dictator is the most expensive cruiser, but most of the Imperial cruisers are only a few points off).

It's harder to measure up the relative DPS because you have to make assumptions about Nova Cannons/Torpedoes....



That's not considering the firepower in the equation which is double or more in most cases. Plus having 300 shield hp + voss vs 200 shield HP and voss assuming upgrades is a big difference in effective survivability.

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Re: IN - Which favour do you favour?

Postby aprg » 05 May 2016, 18:31

That's not considering the firepower in the equation which is double or more in most cases.


It's not really that bad for the Dauntless. The Dauntless has a total of around 6.333 DPS, of which the bulk comes from its front lance. Now it's hard to compare it to most Imperial cruisers because they either have Torps or NCs in front. The Dominator has 6 DPS from its macros, the Lunar has around 5 IIRC from its macros and lance.

Now it's silly to translate the NC or Torps into raw DPS because they're the sort of weapons that have to be used with an eye on strategy; the NC's value against Eldar is vastly greater than against Orks, for example.

But bear in mind that even if you assume 4 out of every 6 torps hit for the Lunar, that gives it a total DPS of around 9. That's not double, that's barely 50% more. Far less if you're facing carriers.

Which is all to say: I don't think the firepower of the Dauntless should be under-estimated...

Plus having 300 shield hp + voss vs 200 shield HP and voss assuming upgrades is a big difference in effective survivability.


Is it, though? I think some people overrate Voss Shields. Sure, 25% miss chance on shields is good, but it's only when your shields are up; it's most effective against big damage dealers, against small chunks of damage, it's no better than a +25% bonus to your shields.

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Deuzerre
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Re: IN - Which favour do you favour?

Postby Deuzerre » 05 May 2016, 20:04

aprg wrote:Is it, though? I think some people overrate Voss Shields. Sure, 25% miss chance on shields is good, but it's only when your shields are up; it's most effective against big damage dealers, against small chunks of damage, it's no better than a +25% bonus to your shields.

On an upgraded shield, it's an effective 250 shield, more so if you get the overcharge and use it at the right time, and you have many ways to boost the reload of shields.
"Common sense isn't as common as the name would imply"

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Re: IN - Which favour do you favour?

Postby aprg » 05 May 2016, 20:10

Deuzerre wrote:On an upgraded shield, it's an effective 250 shield, more so if you get the overcharge and use it at the right time, and you have many ways to boost the reload of shields.


Can you talk me through that maths?

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Deuzerre
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Re: IN - Which favour do you favour?

Postby Deuzerre » 05 May 2016, 20:31

aprg wrote:
Deuzerre wrote:On an upgraded shield, it's an effective 250 shield, more so if you get the overcharge and use it at the right time, and you have many ways to boost the reload of shields.


Can you talk me through that maths?


I know the math isn't really true (just like newton physics aren't really true) but to simplify the maths, 25% of 200 is 50. Assuming a large sample of shots, Voss shields will count, on abverage, pretty much like 50 additional shields on a 200 shield.

Though of course, it can sometimes absorb the whole shot from a mega kanon. And sometimes letting it through wile blocking a 1 damage shot.
"Common sense isn't as common as the name would imply"

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Re: IN - Which favour do you favour?

Postby aprg » 05 May 2016, 20:46

Oh no, I understand you now. I though you meant the whole Voss shield itself was worth 250 points! Which is far, far higher than any of my estimates.

No, I agree with your analysis. On a Dauntless, it doesn't make sense to take Voss before +100. Heck, I think only on the Battleship does it make sense.

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Deuzerre
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Re: IN - Which favour do you favour?

Postby Deuzerre » 05 May 2016, 20:50

I think voss is a great option for any ship you intend to have as a "tank". It provides a great bonus, but it requires a focus of abilities and upgrades to be worth it:

- Additional generators for the +100 shield
- Increased recharge rate upgrade
- The voss upgrade itself
- Additional belt armour to avoid losing your shields on the first crit
- Maybe some more hull HP.

And either the shield overcharge ability or the shield recharge ability.

It's a lot of investments for a "tanky" ship, but really not worth it on ships you don't want to focus on having tanky shields.
"Common sense isn't as common as the name would imply"

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MadDemiurg
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Re: IN - Which favour do you favour?

Postby MadDemiurg » 05 May 2016, 22:12

Voss is effectively +33% EHP.

So +33 shields if you have 100. Bad.
+66 if you have 200. Still bad, but ok if you specialize.
+100 if you have 300. Now we're talking.
And 133 @ 400 and 166 @ 500.

Summary:
-Always take +100 shields first
-If you're under 300 shields consider +100 hull instead. Even at 300 shields imo hull is still better unless you also take shield regen (which seems to be percentage based).
-If you take all 3 shield upgrades you better take belt armour to not lose all of it in 1 crit. That leaves you with 2 upgrades as Ad Mech (there are other IN favours oO).
-For BBs Voss is worth it as the first upgrade

Halstead
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Re: IN - Which favour do you favour?

Postby Halstead » 05 May 2016, 22:34

I have been wondering... how many in this thread know that Adept Mech favour reduce the repair time and repair renown by half?

aprg
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Re: IN - Which favour do you favour?

Postby aprg » 05 May 2016, 22:56

Halstead wrote:I have been wondering... how many in this thread know that Adept Mech favour reduce the repair time and repair renown by half?


Hah, that was an old version of the Favour; perhaps it hasn't been disabled? Hardly that strong, anyway...


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