Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

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von_Rosphe
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby von_Rosphe » 21 April 2016, 03:47

I'm not sure if the Retribution needs a weapon buff. I like it that the ships Stats are closely aligned to the TT.

I think it would be much easier to work with the point-costs.

Let the Emperor-Class have more DPM & Fighters. But if it cost the same points like a Retribution and (for example) a Dauntless it should be ok.

Pleb Squasher
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Pleb Squasher » 21 April 2016, 04:02

chaotic68 wrote:
Pleb Squasher wrote:
Carl wrote:If you don't take range accuracy penalties into account your analysis is invalid.


Also you do know my DPS sheets have all the figures for you tabled in a nice spreadsheet don't you ;). You could have just used those and saved yourself some effort :P .


Nope my analysis is not invalid. Range is not a significant factor in this debate. I am debating that the Retribution does not do sufficient damage, this applies at all ranges. Both ships are armed primarily with macro weapons, in fact the only battery damage in this scenario which isn't macro comes from the Retribution's lance turrets. So there's only 36 guaranteed hit damage coming from the Retribution in a scenario where we are working with damage values in the hundreds. Also aside from these lances, both ships are effected the same way regarding their macros at different ranges.

It really really isn't important here to bother considering range. The differences in capability/damage are marginal due to only a small amount of damage coming from the Retribution's lances which are guaranteed to hit. If you want to go all the way to tell me the percentage change in damage between the Emperor and the Retribution at 3k, 6k, 9k and 12k then be my guest, it doesn't change the state the Retribution is in and absolutely doesn't invalidate my argument.

Yeah I would use your sheets but it's a bit much effort to find the information I want from them. I wanted everyone to be able to understand my calcs so that's why I put them here. Also I'm working per 12 seconds here
at first, i don´t say that this ships don`t need a buff. the best cost/use-factor have the emporer/dominator/Mars. they have answers to each question, 3k, 6k, 9k, 12k, without upgrades. retri, overlord, gothic only have answers to 9k, 12k, 15k, and this only with upgrades.

my opinion is, that your dmg-sheet is false, if you make it with 12k range, because the emporer cannot come in the near of 100 dmg/12sec in this range because it looses 80% of it`s broadside damage, without accuracy upgrade, and, i mean 60% of damage with accuracy upgrade.


What you need to understand is that the range simply doesn't matter at all in this scenario. I am talking about raw damage potential. The actual damage drops proportionally at whatever range you're at (aside from lances, which as I said are not important here). Range actually doesn't make any significant difference when you compare these two ships.

The Retribution does less damage than then Emperor. This does not matter at any range, it still does less damage. The only difference is that it always has that small 36 lance damage extra because they never miss, so it has a tiny lance bonus, that's it!

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Imperator5
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Imperator5 » 21 April 2016, 06:52

von_Rosphe wrote:I'm not sure if the Retribution needs a weapon buff. I like it that the ships Stats are closely aligned to the TT.

I think it would be much easier to work with the point-costs.

Let the Emperor-Class have more DPM & Fighters. But if it cost the same points like a Retribution and (for example) a Dauntless it should be ok.


Why would a turn based game statistics matter so much in an RTS to the detriment of balance and gameplay? Grognards.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

chaotic68
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby chaotic68 » 21 April 2016, 07:29

Pleb Squasher wrote:
chaotic68 wrote:
Pleb Squasher wrote:
Nope my analysis is not invalid. Range is not a significant factor in this debate. I am debating that the Retribution does not do sufficient damage, this applies at all ranges. Both ships are armed primarily with macro weapons, in fact the only battery damage in this scenario which isn't macro comes from the Retribution's lance turrets. So there's only 36 guaranteed hit damage coming from the Retribution in a scenario where we are working with damage values in the hundreds. Also aside from these lances, both ships are effected the same way regarding their macros at different ranges.

It really really isn't important here to bother considering range. The differences in capability/damage are marginal due to only a small amount of damage coming from the Retribution's lances which are guaranteed to hit. If you want to go all the way to tell me the percentage change in damage between the Emperor and the Retribution at 3k, 6k, 9k and 12k then be my guest, it doesn't change the state the Retribution is in and absolutely doesn't invalidate my argument.

Yeah I would use your sheets but it's a bit much effort to find the information I want from them. I wanted everyone to be able to understand my calcs so that's why I put them here. Also I'm working per 12 seconds here
at first, i don´t say that this ships don`t need a buff. the best cost/use-factor have the emporer/dominator/Mars. they have answers to each question, 3k, 6k, 9k, 12k, without upgrades. retri, overlord, gothic only have answers to 9k, 12k, 15k, and this only with upgrades.

my opinion is, that your dmg-sheet is false, if you make it with 12k range, because the emporer cannot come in the near of 100 dmg/12sec in this range because it looses 80% of it`s broadside damage, without accuracy upgrade, and, i mean 60% of damage with accuracy upgrade.


What you need to understand is that the range simply doesn't matter at all in this scenario. I am talking about raw damage potential. The actual damage drops proportionally at whatever range you're at (aside from lances, which as I said are not important here). Range actually doesn't make any significant difference when you compare these two ships.

The Retribution does less damage than then Emperor. This does not matter at any range, it still does less damage. The only difference is that it always has that small 36 lance damage extra because they never miss, so it has a tiny lance bonus, that's it!

you are right, if you ignore range, accuracy, ship-roles, the emporer has an better dmg potential side by side. but against which enemy you will fight so? there are no one. if you will compare both ships, you have to compare the dmg on each range per firing round (12sec) so that you can see against which enemy which ship is better. against chaos, or elder, or imperial, your values say nothing, because they are unmodified. only against orcs they are useable, and they will bring both ships in this range fast to explode. so your values are nice to see, but infight, they say nothing in fights against 3 of 4 races

Carl
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Carl » 21 April 2016, 09:53

Sorry but your analysis is invalid. It's not representative of the truth. And if it isnt true to reality it provides no useful information to decide anything.

Honestly i'm half feeling your a troll here at this point.

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GrenAcid
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby GrenAcid » 21 April 2016, 10:20

Carl wrote:Sorry but your analysis is invalid. It's not representative of the truth. And if it isnt true to reality it provides no useful information to decide anything.

Honestly i'm half feeling your a troll here at this point.

And yet you provide nothing to invalidate that. Who is trolling who?

I like my Retri and while Im all in for macro dps boost I would be more in conserned with torpedo spread cuz its MASIVE right now, shots other than almost point blank spread so wide you cant hit with more than 2-3 torpedos tops(if you lucky you can hit long IN/chaos BS broadside).
All those complains can be deald with by simple cost cut of Retri and I like It cost less than Emperor(maybe even more).
I use my retri as Wall & Ram with Torpedos and its great at his job so far.

PS. Can we have option to put Angel on top of it like Emp have? that eagle is no-no.

Zeratil
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Zeratil » 21 April 2016, 10:37

von_Rosphe wrote:I'm not sure if the Retribution needs a weapon buff. I like it that the ships Stats are closely aligned to the TT.

I think it would be much easier to work with the point-costs.

Let the Emperor-Class have more DPM & Fighters. But if it cost the same points like a Retribution and (for example) a Dauntless it should be ok.


Not many people took the Retribution in the TT either, the Emperor was a clear winner there too.

Magni
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Magni » 21 April 2016, 11:44

chaotic68 wrote:What you need to understand is that the range simply doesn't matter at all in this scenario. I am talking about raw damage potential. The actual damage drops proportionally at whatever range you're at (aside from lances, which as I said are not important here). Range actually doesn't make any significant difference when you compare these two ships.

The Retribution does less damage than then Emperor. This does not matter at any range, it still does less damage. The only difference is that it always has that small 36 lance damage extra because they never miss, so it has a tiny lance bonus, that's it!

you are right, if you ignore range, accuracy, ship-roles, the emporer has an better dmg potential side by side. but against which enemy you will fight so? there are no one. if you will compare both ships, you have to compare the dmg on each range per firing round (12sec) so that you can see against which enemy which ship is better. against chaos, or elder, or imperial, your values say nothing, because they are unmodified. only against orcs they are useable, and they will bring both ships in this range fast to explode. so your values are nice to see, but infight, they say nothing in fights against 3 of 4 races[/quote]

The Retribution does less damage than the Emperor under virtually any circumstance you are liable to encounter in practice. It needs to literally constantly be able to use both broadsides and maximise the DPS of its torpedoes to have evne a chance to outperform the Emperor, which has a much, much, much easier time to apply the majority of its damage output on top of having the utility of strike craft squadrons and immense sensor range.

If the dedicated support BB can virtually equal the dedicated gunship in its own role on top of doing is own job, there's functionally no reason to ever take the gunship at all. Ignore range and accuracy? Sure, it's not like the Emperor will have a considerably EASIER time to apply most of its damage at longer ranges thanks to bombers having a hell of a lot easier a time to consistently hit than torpedoes beyond point blank, while both ships rely overhwelmingly on macrobatteries with the same accurracy for their direct non-ability damage. Taking either into account does NOT help the Retribution look any better. Ignore ship roles? Sure, because the Emperor can virtually equal the Retribution at its own role on top of what it provides that the Ret cannot. That is the entire problem!

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Kadaeux
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Kadaeux » 21 April 2016, 13:40

Magni wrote:If the dedicated support BB can virtually equal the dedicated gunship in its own role on top of doing is own job, there's functionally no reason to ever take the gunship at all. Ignore range and accuracy? Sure, it's not like the Emperor will have a considerably EASIER time to apply most of its damage at longer ranges thanks to bombers having a hell of a lot easier a time to consistently hit than torpedoes beyond point blank, while both ships rely overhwelmingly on macrobatteries with the same accurracy for their direct non-ability damage. Taking either into account does NOT help the Retribution look any better. Ignore ship roles? Sure, because the Emperor can virtually equal the Retribution at its own role on top of what it provides that the Ret cannot. That is the entire problem!


I've got to really agree here. Add on that, unlike the TT, the Emperor class' sensors have a real tangible and HUGE benefit here. On TT, the Emperor just gave a minor improvement to leadership, in BFG:A it's super-sensors have a plethora of benefits to active skills like MWJ.

I hate to phrase it this way. But the Retribution feels like a shitty grand cruiser. It feels like a slightly under-gunned Repulsive Class Grand Cruiser.

von_Rosphe
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby von_Rosphe » 21 April 2016, 22:20

Imperator5 wrote:
von_Rosphe wrote:I'm not sure if the Retribution needs a weapon buff. I like it that the ships Stats are closely aligned to the TT.

I think it would be much easier to work with the point-costs.

Let the Emperor-Class have more DPM & Fighters. But if it cost the same points like a Retribution and (for example) a Dauntless it should be ok.


Why would a turn based game statistics matter so much in an RTS to the detriment of balance and gameplay? Grognards.



I doesn't say that the statistics should matter. I just said that I like it. Thats my personal view.
I just wanted to show an other possibility to balance the ship. Instead of buff something just reduce the points. What is the problem with this point of view?


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