Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

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Amoc
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Amoc » 20 April 2016, 15:43

Gerver wrote:Retribution? Lance Sniper? You trolling right? :lol:


I got a good laugh out of that too. When I built my first IN fleet I put together a Tyrant/Overlord/Retribution fleet that I (wrongly) thought would be able to dish out long range damage. As it turns out, none of these ships do even remotely worthwhile damage at longer ranges. The idea behind plasma-macros being longer-range weapons is just a noob-trap. The accuracy tables by default take away most of the range advantage these weapons have. The trade-off for plasma macros (lower damage than normal macro) just isn't worth it, or even close to worth it, so any ship that relies on them should be avoided.

Carl
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Carl » 20 April 2016, 16:01

If you don't take range accuracy penalties into account your analysis is invalid.


Also you do know my DPS sheets have all the figures for you tabled in a nice spreadsheet don't you ;). You could have just used those and saved yourself some effort :P .

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Imperator5
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Imperator5 » 20 April 2016, 16:03

There is a Lance version, wait actually two. They are called Apocalype and Victory battleships (only difference is, one has 6k the other 12k lances).
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

Zeratil
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Zeratil » 20 April 2016, 16:14

I've played a lot of the beta and while I haven't looked at the math as much as some people in this topic and the last have I can certainly attest that to me at least the retribution feels a lot weaker, and a lot less versatile than the Emperor having played with each a fair amount. I'd certainly like to see some sort of firepower buff to its Macro Cannons so it's broadside feels like the close range hell it should be.

aetaosraukeres
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby aetaosraukeres » 20 April 2016, 16:18

Most IN ships need a damage buff

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Imperial Dane
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Imperial Dane » 20 April 2016, 16:21

aetaosraukeres wrote:Most IN ships need a damage buff


Amen Brother.

Magni
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Magni » 21 April 2016, 00:10

Yeah, the Ret and to some degree the Overlod and Tyrant are just in a bad spot right now. At least the Retribution and Overlord need to either have their batteries replaced with heavy plasma macros and their points cost slightly increased - or be left as is and given a significant cost reduction.

I'd consider a 240-250 point Retribution with full heavy plasma broadsides or the current one priced at like 200-210 an actually worthwhile alternative option compared to the Emperor. No idea for specific values for the Overlord. Personally, I'd prefer the heavy plasma+cost increase option from the two.

As for the Tyrant (when going with the heavy plasma for Overlord/Ret option) I'd prolly make it mirror the upgraded TT variant more closely by nerfing the normal plasma macros to 9k range, but giving them a slight damage increase and giving the Tyrant its upgrade variant with a uniform plasma macro broadside - functionally turning it into a Dominator with torpedos and still less powerful (but not overly so), longer-ranged broadside macros. Or, if you want to look at it from another angle, a Carnage-class that trades in speed and dorsal weapons for torpedoes and the customary IN prow armor.

Pleb Squasher
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Pleb Squasher » 21 April 2016, 02:51

Carl wrote:If you don't take range accuracy penalties into account your analysis is invalid.


Also you do know my DPS sheets have all the figures for you tabled in a nice spreadsheet don't you ;). You could have just used those and saved yourself some effort :P .


Nope my analysis is not invalid. Range is not a significant factor in this debate. I am debating that the Retribution does not do sufficient damage, this applies at all ranges. Both ships are armed primarily with macro weapons, in fact the only battery damage in this scenario which isn't macro comes from the Retribution's lance turrets. So there's only 36 guaranteed hit damage coming from the Retribution in a scenario where we are working with damage values in the hundreds. Also aside from these lances, both ships are effected the same way regarding their macros at different ranges.

It really really isn't important here to bother considering range. The differences in capability/damage are marginal due to only a small amount of damage coming from the Retribution's lances which are guaranteed to hit. If you want to go all the way to tell me the percentage change in damage between the Emperor and the Retribution at 3k, 6k, 9k and 12k then be my guest, it doesn't change the state the Retribution is in and absolutely doesn't invalidate my argument.

Yeah I would use your sheets but it's a bit much effort to find the information I want from them. I wanted everyone to be able to understand my calcs so that's why I put them here. Also I'm working per 12 seconds here

Pleb Squasher
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Pleb Squasher » 21 April 2016, 02:57

Imperator5 wrote:There is a Lance version, wait actually two. They are called Apocalype and Victory battleships (only difference is, one has 6k the other 12k lances).


Why on earth does the IN have these weird 6k lances? I don't see any benefit in them, they share the same traits as other lances (low damage) yet they lose their primary attribute of making up for this low damage, by being able to reliably apply it at all ranges.

This is why I think the Gothic could use a damage buff. Before upgrades for the extra crit, there is literally no reason to take lances over macros at 6k combat, especially now that lances can still be blocked by armour.

chaotic68
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby chaotic68 » 21 April 2016, 03:29

Pleb Squasher wrote:
Carl wrote:If you don't take range accuracy penalties into account your analysis is invalid.


Also you do know my DPS sheets have all the figures for you tabled in a nice spreadsheet don't you ;). You could have just used those and saved yourself some effort :P .


Nope my analysis is not invalid. Range is not a significant factor in this debate. I am debating that the Retribution does not do sufficient damage, this applies at all ranges. Both ships are armed primarily with macro weapons, in fact the only battery damage in this scenario which isn't macro comes from the Retribution's lance turrets. So there's only 36 guaranteed hit damage coming from the Retribution in a scenario where we are working with damage values in the hundreds. Also aside from these lances, both ships are effected the same way regarding their macros at different ranges.

It really really isn't important here to bother considering range. The differences in capability/damage are marginal due to only a small amount of damage coming from the Retribution's lances which are guaranteed to hit. If you want to go all the way to tell me the percentage change in damage between the Emperor and the Retribution at 3k, 6k, 9k and 12k then be my guest, it doesn't change the state the Retribution is in and absolutely doesn't invalidate my argument.

Yeah I would use your sheets but it's a bit much effort to find the information I want from them. I wanted everyone to be able to understand my calcs so that's why I put them here. Also I'm working per 12 seconds here
at first, i don´t say that this ships don`t need a buff. the best cost/use-factor have the emporer/dominator/Mars. they have answers to each question, 3k, 6k, 9k, 12k, without upgrades. retri, overlord, gothic only have answers to 9k, 12k, 15k, and this only with upgrades.

my opinion is, that your dmg-sheet is false, if you make it with 12k range, because the emporer cannot come in the near of 100 dmg/12sec in this range because it looses 80% of it`s broadside damage, without accuracy upgrade, and, i mean 60% of damage with accuracy upgrade.


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