Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

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Pleb Squasher
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Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Pleb Squasher » 20 April 2016, 07:36

So the Retribution needs buffs. Here's the evidence considering Emperor vs Retribtuion:

EDIT: forum doesn't recognise the little 'approximate' squiggles so any dashes before values indicate they are approximate.

Emperor stats
Emperor broadside damage calcs per 12 seconds
Heavy plas macro: 18 X 4 = 72
Heavy macro turrets: 18 X 2 = 36 now since you have three turrets 36 X 3 = 108
Total broadside damage:180
I am not sure as to strike craft damage values, however 4 launch bays adds a large amount of dps and also a lot of utility.
Total damage per 12 seconds ~200+ damage

- Speed: 112 (75% of Retribution's speed)
- Prow Augur array, 100% more detection range than Retribution. This also provides an indirect MWJ buff which is quite significant.

Emperor full gun damage, presuming all batteries on the ship are firing.
72 + 72 + 108 = 252

Summary
When you look at the Emperor's guns, it has the equivalent of two and a half heavy plasma macro batteries. The only difference being that the turrets can only fire on one target at a time as opposed to targets on either side of the ship. The Emperor has way more utility than the Retribution. It is only 25% slower. The Emperor has much higher single target damage than the Retribution. The Emperor can deal the same damage at 12k to one target as the Retribution before counting strike craft.


Retribution stats
Retribution broadside damage calcs per 12 seconds
3 X Plasma macro battery: (12 X 4 = 48) X 3 = 144
3 X Lance turret: 12 X 3 = 36
Total broadside damage: 180

Torpedo potential damage per 12 seconds (45 second CD divided by 12 = 3.75)
45 X 8 = 360
360 * 3.75 = 96

Retribution total damage firing all guns per 12 seconds
144 X 2 = 288
288 + 36 = 324
Total damage with guns and torps per 12 seconds
324 + 96 = 420 ayyy lmao

- Speed: 150

Summary
The Retribution possesses more potential damage overall than the Emperor provided that certain, very particular criteria are met:
- Retribution must be firing at targets on both sides of the ship.
- The Retribution must hit a significant number of torpedoes (not just 1 or 2) every 45 seconds. Remember to achieve this statistic of equivilant 96 damage per 12 seconds with the torps, the Retribution would have to fire and hit every single torpedo each time the ability came of cooldown with no delay.
So in practice, the Retribution has far less damage than the Emperor as satisfying the above criteria reliably is almost impossible.
Considering strike craft, the retribution has greatly inferior single target damage than the Emperor.
Retribution has way less utility than the Emperor. Having 25% more speed does not give a particularly significant advantage.

Conclusion:
The Retribution, despite theoretically possessing far higher damage potential (estimated at ~25% higher. ~420 vs ~300)than the Emperor, is not as good of a ship. The Retribution cannot practically apply it's damage, especially considering that this would require perfect use of torpedoes. The Retribution, despite possessing 25% more speed has far less utility than the Emperor due to the Emperor's 10k detection range and indirect MWJ bonus.
In a realistic scenario, considering both battleships firing a broadside at a single target, the Emperor and Retribution have exactly the same damage output (before strike craft) which is very disappointing for the Retribution, considering its main source of damage should be coming from its broadside fire.

If the Retribution had heavy plas batteries:
It would have 252 broadside damage per 12 seconds (lance turrets included) as opposed to the current 180 broadside damage.

If this is too much damage, you could simply give it less heavy plasma macros. Perhaps only 1-2 per side, as opposed to replacing all current batteries. A single heavy plasma battery per side wouldn't really be sufficient buff though. Reducing the Retribution's range could also be used to balance a large increase in damage, although it is nice sitting this ship at 12k.

If the Retribution had heavy macro turrets instead of lance turrets:
It would have all around damage of 108 (as opposed to 36) per 12 seconds, bringing a full broadside to 252 damage as with the heavy plasma macro scenario. Because the Retribution is broadside focused ship, I would advocate for the heavy plasma batteries over this.

Please fix this ship. It's one of my favourites and it should be as competitive as the Emperor.

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Imperator5
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Imperator5 » 20 April 2016, 08:24

Agreed. Here is some further math.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1578
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Georgess
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Georgess » 20 April 2016, 08:38

Yes please
If the Adeptus Astartes are the Emperor's wrath, and the Imperial Guard His hammer, then His Holy Navy is His mighty shield."
— Cardinal Kregory Hestor

Magpie842
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Magpie842 » 20 April 2016, 09:53

I agree. This thing should have terrifying broadsides. At the moment it just has broadsides.

lord_sitruc
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby lord_sitruc » 20 April 2016, 13:19

Its a battleship with smaller guns then a cruiser...... enough said.

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Gerver
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Gerver » 20 April 2016, 13:33

Desolator also bad, only 6 lance cannons and 2 missile pods, bassicaly acheron (4 lance +2 lance turrets+missile pod+macro turret), description about aditional macro canons on each lance battery is a lie, this ship i a joke too.

And about retribution - I wrote a big post about "bad" ships and other stuff, retributon was in this list, and the idea was to buff Plasma-macro in general, not only on Retri.

cmdchicken
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby cmdchicken » 20 April 2016, 13:38

Gerver wrote:And about retribution - I wrote a big post about "bad" ships and other stuff, retributon was in this list, and the idea was to buff Plasma-macro in general, not only on Retri.


That would give the Overlord some love as well, which I'm all for. I didn't pick IN to run a carrier fleet but plasma macros being so weak meant I had to swap out my Retri and Overlords for the Emperor and Mars. It's just not the Imperial Navy I pictured.

chaotic68
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby chaotic68 » 20 April 2016, 15:00

Pleb Squasher wrote:Emperor stats
Emperor broadside damage calcs per 12 seconds
Heavy plas macro: 18 X 4 = 72
Heavy macro turrets: 18 X 2 = 36 now since you have three turrets 36 X 3 = 108
Total broadside damage:180
I am not sure as to strike craft damage values, however 4 launch bays adds a large amount of dps and also a lot of utility.
Total damage per 12 seconds ~200+ damage

- Speed: 112 (75% of Retribution's speed)
- Prow Augur array, 100% more detection range than Retribution. This also provides an indirect MWJ buff which is quite significant.

Emperor full gun damage, presuming all batteries on the ship are firing.
72 + 72 + 108 = 252

Summary
When you look at the Emperor's guns, it has the equivalent of two and a half heavy plasma macro batteries. The only difference being that the turrets can only fire on one target at a time as opposed to targets on either side of the ship. The Emperor has way more utility than the Retribution. It is only 25% slower. The Emperor has much higher single target damage than the Retribution. The Emperor can deal the same damage at 12k to one target as the Retribution before counting strike craft.

sorry, but your summary is false. the emporer has much higher single target damage than the retribution on 0-3k range. you only take the damage numbers, but don`t count the accuracy. on 12k. the macros only do 20% hit, and so they lose 80% of damage.
you say the emporer make 180 dmg with one broadside, but, the real dmg without macro-accuracy upgrade is in an area of 36-40 dmg. and yes, plasma macros are also macros, and have an range accuracy-debuff.

Pleb Squasher wrote:Retribution stats
Retribution broadside damage calcs per 12 seconds
3 X Plasma macro battery: (12 X 4 = 48) X 3 = 144
3 X Lance turret: 12 X 3 = 36
Total broadside damage: 180

Torpedo potential damage per 12 seconds (45 second CD divided by 12 = 3.75)
45 X 8 = 360
360 * 3.75 = 96

Retribution total damage firing all guns per 12 seconds
144 X 2 = 288
288 + 36 = 324
Total damage with guns and torps per 12 seconds
324 + 96 = 420 ayyy lmao

- Speed: 150

Summary
The Retribution possesses more potential damage overall than the Emperor provided that certain, very particular criteria are met:
- Retribution must be firing at targets on both sides of the ship.
- The Retribution must hit a significant number of torpedoes (not just 1 or 2) every 45 seconds. Remember to achieve this statistic of equivilant 96 damage per 12 seconds with the torps, the Retribution would have to fire and hit every single torpedo each time the ability came of cooldown with no delay.
So in practice, the Retribution has far less damage than the Emperor as satisfying the above criteria reliably is almost impossible.
Considering strike craft, the retribution has greatly inferior single target damage than the Emperor.
Retribution has way less utility than the Emperor. Having 25% more speed does not give a particularly significant advantage.
also, false.
the damage of the retribution, based on the 12k, you have tell above, the retri makes 28-30 dmg (here counts also the accuracy debuff for the plasma macros) + 36 (lance turrets hits every time, on min. range and max range)

why no one uses the role of this ship. it is a sniper ship for max range. throw the macros out, and give this ship only lances. try it by your self, the elder most doesn´t fly away enough for max range lances, the orcs doesn´t make real damage on 12k. the retri is a fine ship, if you use it in his role. if you try to use it in the role of the emporer, it will explode.

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Gerver
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Gerver » 20 April 2016, 15:23

Retribution? Lance Sniper? You trolling right? :lol:

Pleb Squasher
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Re: Resurrecting Retribution buff requests

Postby Pleb Squasher » 20 April 2016, 15:29

chaotic68 wrote:
Pleb Squasher wrote:Emperor stats
Emperor broadside damage calcs per 12 seconds
Heavy plas macro: 18 X 4 = 72
Heavy macro turrets: 18 X 2 = 36 now since you have three turrets 36 X 3 = 108
Total broadside damage:180
I am not sure as to strike craft damage values, however 4 launch bays adds a large amount of dps and also a lot of utility.
Total damage per 12 seconds ~200+ damage

- Speed: 112 (75% of Retribution's speed)
- Prow Augur array, 100% more detection range than Retribution. This also provides an indirect MWJ buff which is quite significant.

Emperor full gun damage, presuming all batteries on the ship are firing.
72 + 72 + 108 = 252

Summary
When you look at the Emperor's guns, it has the equivalent of two and a half heavy plasma macro batteries. The only difference being that the turrets can only fire on one target at a time as opposed to targets on either side of the ship. The Emperor has way more utility than the Retribution. It is only 25% slower. The Emperor has much higher single target damage than the Retribution. The Emperor can deal the same damage at 12k to one target as the Retribution before counting strike craft.

sorry, but your summary is false. the emporer has much higher single target damage than the retribution on 0-3k range. you only take the damage numbers, but don`t count the accuracy. on 12k. the macros only do 20% hit, and so they lose 80% of damage.
you say the emporer make 180 dmg with one broadside, but, the real dmg without macro-accuracy upgrade is in an area of 36-40 dmg. and yes, plasma macros are also macros, and have an range accuracy-debuff.

Pleb Squasher wrote:Retribution stats
Retribution broadside damage calcs per 12 seconds
3 X Plasma macro battery: (12 X 4 = 48) X 3 = 144
3 X Lance turret: 12 X 3 = 36
Total broadside damage: 180

Torpedo potential damage per 12 seconds (45 second CD divided by 12 = 3.75)
45 X 8 = 360
360 * 3.75 = 96

Retribution total damage firing all guns per 12 seconds
144 X 2 = 288
288 + 36 = 324
Total damage with guns and torps per 12 seconds
324 + 96 = 420 ayyy lmao

- Speed: 150

Summary
The Retribution possesses more potential damage overall than the Emperor provided that certain, very particular criteria are met:
- Retribution must be firing at targets on both sides of the ship.
- The Retribution must hit a significant number of torpedoes (not just 1 or 2) every 45 seconds. Remember to achieve this statistic of equivilant 96 damage per 12 seconds with the torps, the Retribution would have to fire and hit every single torpedo each time the ability came of cooldown with no delay.
So in practice, the Retribution has far less damage than the Emperor as satisfying the above criteria reliably is almost impossible.
Considering strike craft, the retribution has greatly inferior single target damage than the Emperor.
Retribution has way less utility than the Emperor. Having 25% more speed does not give a particularly significant advantage.
also, false.
the damage of the retribution, based on the 12k, you have tell above, the retri makes 28-30 dmg (here counts also the accuracy debuff for the plasma macros) + 36 (lance turrets hits every time, on min. range and max range)

why no one uses the role of this ship. it is a sniper ship for max range. throw the macros out, and give this ship only lances. try it by your self, the elder most doesn´t fly away enough for max range lances, the orcs doesn´t make real damage on 12k. the retri is a fine ship, if you use it in his role. if you try to use it in the role of the emporer, it will explode.


Actually my summary is correct :P
The reason I don't take into account accuracy values when calculating damage, is because that would change damage at each different range, defeating the point of the analysis. I can only account for so many variables, by using a control where I ignore accuracy, you get the best results. In some cases range is important to consider, however here it is not as both ships share 12k range weapons. I do appreciate what you're saying about ranges though, and if I was comparing lance armed ships to macro armed vessels, range would be very important.
Put simply, it's just too complicated to give you damage comparisons at different ranges.

Both ships are supposed to be used up to 12k, they should both be effective at this range, Emperor moreso perhaps due to strike craft. If you consider all factors, the Emperor actually benefits more from being up close, due to being fully macro armed. Retribution's lances are giving you guaranteed 36 damage at all ranges, which is the idea behind *most* lances. It would be nice if the devs would perhaps honour this, by helping out the Gothic and Lunar a bit with either deserved range buffs or increased damage to offset the unjustified short range...


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