Gothic cruiser, the worst cruiser in game?

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NickEcho
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Gothic cruiser, the worst cruiser in game?

Postby NickEcho » 17 August 2016, 14:22

The venerable Gothic cruiser, sharing the name with this game and the sector the campaign is located in. One would expect it to be the mainstay within the imperial navy. However, after examining its weaponry, you just never use it/use it only in 300 point games where you want 2 cruisers that are not Lunars. It is bad. Really, really bad.

Before we begin, everything is calculated using a single broadside of 2 batteries, the most likely scenario of engagement.

Lets examine its weaponry. 12 damage lances, 12 second cool down between shots, 2 lances per battery, making it 4 lance broadside, 240 damage per minute. Take 25 armor into account, that leaves a meager 180 dpm. For comparison, other imperial cruisers are engaging at 6k (60% accuracy) versus a 50 armor target, a very likely encounter, also the best scenario for Gothic, sub optimal for everyone else. No upgrades/orders.

Gothic: 180 DPM.
Dominator: 216.
Dictator: 108 macro + up to 180 from squadrons.
Tyrant: 198.
Lunar: 198.

Lance Dauntless: 207.

As we can see, optimal engagement range for Gothic, sub optimal for every other ship. Gothic is last anyway. Loses out even to the light cruiser.

Versus shields, the Gothic, without the upgrades, will take a minute to get trough 200 shields. Macro cruisers, without having to worry about armor, will need 3 salvos and will have a few rounds remaining to hit the hull. Almost 2 times faster.

Furthermore, other ships can greatly increase the damage with range and armor piercing ammo, more than 2x the amount at sub 3k range and ap ammo for Tyrant and Dominator. No way to increase damage for the Gothic.

After the space marines came out, one would think that Gothic finally found a niche. Yet space marines like to come close to board, or stay at range with thunder hawks and boarding torpedoes. Neither scenario is good for the Gothic - 6-9k range wont do much versus fast space marine ships that want to stay at range, while armor piercing ammo using macro cruiser will still do more damage, even versus 75 armor space marine ships, if they want to close in.

Can we save the ship? I would like to think so. I would like to suggest one of the following:
a) increase the base range for the Gothic lances from 6k to 9k, allowing it to hit up to 12k with upgrade. Will not break anything - chaos will still be the lance kings with their 12-15 k lances.
b) reduce the cool down between shots from 12 seconds to 10, making it a more effective mid-range lancer. At 6 - 9k almost everyone can fire back, so it has to be at least somewhat competent at dealing damage. It would bring its damage out put up to 288 (216 expected due to 25 armor). It would increase its firepower by 20%. Not spectacular anyway, but any bit helps.

I will not suggest a price reduction, because those few extra renown wont do anything in lower point games, and will allow minimal manipulation in high point ones (maybe squeezing in 2 cobras instead of that sword).

Thoughts?

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Re: Gothic cruiser, the worst cruiser in game?

Postby CALiGeR190 » 17 August 2016, 15:05

NickEcho wrote:The venerable Gothic cruiser, sharing the name with this game and the sector the campaign is located in. One would expect it to be the mainstay within the imperial navy. However, after examining its weaponry, you just never use it/use it only in 300 point games where you want 2 cruisers that are not Lunars. It is bad. Really, really bad.

Before we begin, everything is calculated using a single broadside of 2 batteries, the most likely scenario of engagement.

Lets examine its weaponry. 12 damage lances, 12 second cool down between shots, 2 lances per battery, making it 4 lance broadside, 240 damage per minute. Take 25 armor into account, that leaves a meager 180 dpm. For comparison, other imperial cruisers are engaging at 6k (60% accuracy) versus a 50 armor target, a very likely encounter, also the best scenario for Gothic, sub optimal for everyone else. No upgrades/orders.

Gothic: 180 DPM.
Dominator: 216.
Dictator: 108 macro + up to 180 from squadrons.
Tyrant: 198.
Lunar: 198.

Lance Dauntless: 207.

As we can see, optimal engagement range for Gothic, sub optimal for every other ship. Gothic is last anyway. Loses out even to the light cruiser.

Versus shields, the Gothic, without the upgrades, will take a minute to get trough 200 shields. Macro cruisers, without having to worry about armor, will need 3 salvos and will have a few rounds remaining to hit the hull. Almost 2 times faster.

Furthermore, other ships can greatly increase the damage with range and armor piercing ammo, more than 2x the amount at sub 3k range and ap ammo for Tyrant and Dominator. No way to increase damage for the Gothic.

After the space marines came out, one would think that Gothic finally found a niche. Yet space marines like to come close to board, or stay at range with thunder hawks and boarding torpedoes. Neither scenario is good for the Gothic - 6-9k range wont do much versus fast space marine ships that want to stay at range, while armor piercing ammo using macro cruiser will still do more damage, even versus 75 armor space marine ships, if they want to close in.

Can we save the ship? I would like to think so. I would like to suggest one of the following:
a) increase the base range for the Gothic lances from 6k to 9k, allowing it to hit up to 12k with upgrade. Will not break anything - chaos will still be the lance kings with their 12-15 k lances.
b) reduce the cool down between shots from 12 seconds to 10, making it a more effective mid-range lancer. At 6 - 9k almost everyone can fire back, so it has to be at least somewhat competent at dealing damage. It would bring its damage out put up to 288 (216 expected due to 25 armor). It would increase its firepower by 20%. Not spectacular anyway, but any bit helps.

I will not suggest a price reduction, because those few extra renown wont do anything in lower point games, and will allow minimal manipulation in high point ones (maybe squeezing in 2 cobras instead of that sword).

Thoughts?

Its easily the weakest of the IN cruisers, but shes got tough competition to go up against. Even the less played IN cruisers are very decent when you compare them against other factions. But weakest in the game? I hesitate to say that.

While I might personally like the Carnage and Murder, neither I would say are better than the Gothic. I might even go as far as to say they are worse in certain situations.
If I ever use the Gothic I always put the range and shield disruption upgrades on her. Then she makes for a pretty cheap ship which is a useful shield-stripper with 270 DPM vs shields and AP+Never miss at 9K. Its niche, and other IN cruisers are just more useful in most cases, but she has her place. Very useful if you need to kill a line-ship quickly or tear through a bunch of escorts.
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Re: Gothic cruiser, the worst cruiser in game?

Postby Imperator5 » 17 August 2016, 16:26

I feel like 3k bonus to its lance range would give it more of an edge.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

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Re: Gothic cruiser, the worst cruiser in game?

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 17 August 2016, 16:46

Carnage? Really?

It's a slaughterhouse for Eldar due to its macros. Inferior to Slaughter but a whole league above Murder and Gothic.

Yeah Gothic are already considered pretty damn weak in the lore. They even have saying "A lonely gothic is dead Gothic" or something along those lines, don't remember the exact wording.

Also lore-wise, Gothic's only niche were they shine is making very short job of escorts. So they were good at.... escorting duties. Oh sweet irony. They protected very well against pirate raiding attempts.

Dunno how to represent it in the game but really they should have at least 9k range if not 12k, they are supposed to be lance boats and right now they are only an inferior option to literally any other cruiser IN has.
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Re: Gothic cruiser, the worst cruiser in game?

Postby CALiGeR190 » 17 August 2016, 17:19

Ahzek Ahriman wrote:Carnage? Really?

It's a slaughterhouse for Eldar due to its macros. Inferior to Slaughter but a whole league above Murder and Gothic.

Yeah Gothic are already considered pretty damn weak in the lore. They even have saying "A lonely gothic is dead Gothic" or something along those lines, don't remember the exact wording.

Also lore-wise, Gothic's only niche were they shine is making very short job of escorts. So they were good at.... escorting duties. Oh sweet irony. They protected very well against pirate raiding attempts.

Dunno how to represent it in the game but really they should have at least 9k range if not 12k, they are supposed to be lance boats and right now they are only an inferior option to literally any other cruiser IN has.

'A lone Gothic, is a dead Gothic'.
They are probably at their most lore-accurate as they are currently, but a range upgrade wont hurt.
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Re: Gothic cruiser, the worst cruiser in game?

Postby Imperator5 » 17 August 2016, 18:26

The Carnage actually from a PVE perspective is pretty nice. Especially with MoN. Its turret adds to its broadside power and it needs no dual weapon system upgrade which is a big plus.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

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Re: Gothic cruiser, the worst cruiser in game?

Postby NickEcho » 17 August 2016, 19:57

Carnage broadside is only slightly weaker than that of a Dominator. With turrets it is very similar. When firing at one target, of course. Lets not get derailed.

CALiGeR190 wrote:Its easily the weakest of the IN cruisers, but shes got tough competition to go up against. Even the less played IN cruisers are very decent when you compare them against other factions. But weakest in the game? I hesitate to say that.

While I might personally like the Carnage and Murder, neither I would say are better than the Gothic. I might even go as far as to say they are worse in certain situations.
If I ever use the Gothic I always put the range and shield disruption upgrades on her. Then she makes for a pretty cheap ship which is a useful shield-stripper with 270 DPM vs shields and AP+Never miss at 9K. Its niche, and other IN cruisers are just more useful in most cases, but she has her place. Very useful if you need to kill a line-ship quickly or tear through a bunch of escorts.


With its damage the Gothic will not be killing anything quickly. Not even an escort. Also you used the 180 damage x 1.5 versus shields. Gothic deals 180 when firing at the hull, with the 25 armor. Base damage is 240, making it 360 versus shields. Still, the Dominator would deal 432 at 6k range versus shields, so not at all impressive.

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Re: Gothic cruiser, the worst cruiser in game?

Postby Shaftoe » 23 September 2016, 08:23

Gothic is so bad, because lances are very bad. Very weak. This system demands changes. Lances should fire rarely, but hard.


Yes, Nova cannon and lances are two bad topics for the Imperial Navy.
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Re: Gothic cruiser, the worst cruiser in game?

Postby Neighbor Kid » 23 September 2016, 21:43

Not to mention lances sound terrible.. like they have no meaty power to em..

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Re: Gothic cruiser, the worst cruiser in game?

Postby Beernchips » 24 September 2016, 09:16

Best way to kill escorts is to ram them, not to bring Gothic.
The best role of Gothic is bringing another cruiser for IN in 2v2 300 pts gamesif you choose a Tyrant or Dominator. And even in that role Lunar seems better.
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