Thoughts on Imperium

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Sagranda
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Re: Thoughts on Imperium

Postby Sagranda » 19 March 2016, 12:54

It should also be mentioned that the "extra skillslot" of the Adeptus Mechanicus Favour doesn't work on Battleships.
I have no Tabletop background and therefor I have no clue how it works there, but so far it wasn't mentioned ingame that ships are limited to 4 skills.
Paid 1.600 renown to find that out -.-

I can see its use on brawlers though to give them an extra defense, mobility or control skill.
The question is if it is better than the Adeptus Astartes Favour, which I personally prefer on them.
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firaxin
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Re: Thoughts on Imperium

Postby firaxin » 19 March 2016, 18:59

Sagranda wrote:I have no Tabletop background and therefor I have no clue how it works there


There are no "skill slots" in the tabletop version, or "favors" for that matter.

Favors are shoehorned into the video game version to balance Chaos having access to the 4 'Marks' of their Gods. Those do have rules in the table top. But since upgrades don't cost a points value in PvP, the devs have to make up 4 marks for every other faction just to make it fair.

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Raven
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Re: Thoughts on Imperium

Postby Raven » 19 March 2016, 22:21

well I made a kinda long post already regarding my take on favours, marks and the like in my other thread under Suggestions, so I don't want to repeat myself, but I think Space Marines is the most useful overall favour for Imperium, followed by A.Mec for utility whilst the Navy is worthless atm and Inquisition too weak because only 3 crew members have an impact on ship performance.

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Re: Thoughts on Imperium

Postby Lord Nirgal » 19 March 2016, 23:07

Mmm...

After having played mainly chaos now i'm focusing on imperials and i must disagree on much of what the op said.

First of all torpedos: they are nasty and powerfull even now, i suggested to give them some armor penetration as will be in the next update but they are fine even now. Most players use tgem wrong especially because the novacannon is a bad school, for torps to be usefull you need to have them on all your ships and learn to micro your fleet.

The overlord bc is awesome. It has a very high dps and with targeting matrix it can deal a lot of damage up to 6-9k, plus 3 dorsal lances! Put an overlord in the center of your formation and he will be devastating.

The emperor bs i find it inferior to her less costly sister, carriers are good only you can mass them and keep them at range, while macros and lances with the nasty 8 torps barrage with a torp fleet can wreck havok.

The tyrant is good too, plasma macro cannons are very nice, and i use it sometimes as a cheap overlord or a support for the lances of gothic class.

Honestly imperials are fine (except for novacannon), probably adeptus mechanicus favor is a bit overpowered.

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GreySeer
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Re: Thoughts on Imperium

Postby GreySeer » 19 March 2016, 23:32

Lord Nirgal wrote:probably adeptus mechanicus favor is a bit overpowered.


Overpowered? How if I may ask? In my opinion this favour completely useless and and only the favour of imperial navy is worse. Besides the additional ability that BS can't use brings nothing to the battle. 50% cheaper repair? Don't lose your ships or take other for 2 battles then the repair cost will be 100% cheaper and without any investment. Favours of the inquisition and adeptus astrates bring something to battle, adeptus mechanicus brings one more skill for no BS, and it supposed to be Overpowered?

Shaftoe wrote:Mechanicus should remain their kremlin-red color


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Re: Thoughts on Imperium

Postby Candor » 20 March 2016, 00:09

GreySeer wrote:
Lord Nirgal wrote:probably adeptus mechanicus favor is a bit overpowered.


Overpowered? How if I may ask? In my opinion this favour completely useless and and only the favour of imperial navy is worse. Besides the additional ability that BS can't use brings nothing to the battle. 50% cheaper repair? Don't lose your ships or take other for 2 battles then the repair cost will be 100% cheaper and without any investment. Favours of the inquisition and adeptus astrates bring something to battle, adeptus mechanicus brings one more skill for no BS, and it supposed to be Overpowered?

Shaftoe wrote:Mechanicus should remain their kremlin-red color


And do you have any tech-priest to back it?


Well if you buy it before any upgrades etc, then you can view it as a cheap favour which adds a skill slot.

And I think the red would be OK if the green wasn't so overpowering, so +1 on redder Mechanicus ships
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Re: Thoughts on Imperium

Postby Lord Nirgal » 20 March 2016, 01:09

1 plus ability for ship is incredibly powerfull. Without it you have to make choices, with it you can field every ability you want.

Cruisers and especially light cruisers gain a lot!

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Re: Thoughts on Imperium

Postby Pleb Squasher » 20 March 2016, 01:58

Raven wrote:Greetings all,

after 30 hours of gameplay ( mainly skirmish as Imperium) and intense forum stalking as well as number crunching I thought I'd add what I think of the current state of the Imperium.

I'll start with a overview of the ships.

Light Cruisers:

Dauntless Mk1 :

Like pointed out in the DPM Excel sheet thread, those things are brutal if played right. Their broadside isn't exactly their strong point, but who needs that when you can have a relatively fast, manuverable ship with 75 % prow armor and 90% of its damage potential in the prow anyway. It has an insane damage potential for its class mainly due to its heavy prow lance which is stronger than the dorsal Lance turrets on Battlecruisers or Battleships, which seems rather strange. If anything needs to be changed here, I'd say the strenght of said lance should be brought in line with other lances. It would remain really good anyway.

Dauntless Mk2 :

Not really very different except the fact that it does have a torpedo launcher instead of the heavy lance; that alone makes it much more difficult to use effectively. No point right now in using it due to the sad state of torpedoes, but worth a try after the next patch.
The torpedo launcher could add a really mean opening burst, however.

Cruisers:

Lunar:

A solid, but not very attractive cruiser because it lacks a clear gameplay niché. Lances are covered better by the Gothic, macro cannons by the Dominator, so nothing else really remains for it. Its front torpedoes also do nothing in its favor as a broadside focused ship. Replacing the torpedoes with a single lance or macro turret would go a long way in making it more interesting as a flexible ship; additionally reducing its point cost to a point where its possible to field 3 Lunars instead of 2 Gothics and a Dauntless would make it a "point cost effective" ship and give it an "economy niché".

Dictator:

Carrier cruiser, simple, effective and rather competive with other ships of its role. Boardings are rather rng dependant and thus not exactly reliably plannable (hence I don't really like 'em), its most glaring issue atm are the massivly subpar bombers. With powerful bombers, however, this would be quite powerful.

Gothic:

Exceptionally good and powerful pure lance cruiser. Looks underwhelming at first, but once you realize that lances never miss, ignore armor and thus always perform perfectly reliable up to 9k distance on this thing, you'll fall in love with it. Nothing to balance here, I guess, perfectly fine.

Dominator:

Another exceptional ship, the polar opposite of the Gothic. Completely pointless on anything over 6k range, but cross the 3k distance mark and it just straight up murders everything. Has higher damage per second/minute at 3k than most battleships/cruisers and if that alone weren't enough, also a nova cannon. Right now, it costs not nearly enough points for its power, but that is more of an issue with battlecruisers/ships.

Tyrant:

A cruiser that sacrifices raw damage for range versatility with plasma macro cannons. On paper a fine concept, but almost completly pointless in actual gameplay, because :

1) those plasma macrocannons are weaker than normal ones and
2) their improved range means nothing because the damage falloff due to accuraccy issues is way too steep beyond 6k range.

There is, however, nothing wrong with the concept itself, its just that plasma macrocannons right now are pointless. (More on that later)

Battlecruisers:

Mars:

Versatility carrier: Dorsal lance turrets with 12k range, macro cannons for close up broadsides, ordnance bays, and a nova cannon.
Very good ship, same issue as the Dictator - unreliable assault boats and subpar bombers. With powerful bombers, this will become a long range terror that can hold its own in close range.

Overlord:

Supposed to be almost a battleship in terms of armament, but with less shield/armor but more speed.
Actually a more expensive variant of a Dominator with more range and consistant damage output, but less maximum firepower and no nova cannon. Or in other words: doesn't match its concept.
Reason why: Armed again like the poor Tyrant with plasma macro cannons.


Battleships:

Emperor:

Generally hailed around these forums as the superior battleship in comparison to its brother, this is a supercarrier with a ton of macro cannons and a giant vision range, but slow as a snail. Right now it suffers the same fate as all other carriers, regarding assault boats and bombers, but its actual issue is that while it has, ridicoulusly enough, more raw damage potential than the Retribution, it will never be able to bring it to bear, because it is way too slow to ever get in 6k or heaven forbid, 3k range where it would just rip everything apart. Sure, its possible to micro-warp to one poor victim, but thats about it (if the target just doesn't warp away).
Either way, those cannons are, of course, plasma macro cannons again. (This seems to become a trend with underwhelming Imperium ships by now, don't you agree?)


Retribution:

The big boy in the room, supposed to be able to unleash an unparalleled broadside blasting everything to dust.
Yeah, well, not exactly. Now I am quite a bit more of a Retribution fan than one of the Emperor, because those lovely tripe dorsal lance turrets of this beauty give it not only impressive range but also a solid base damage output.
However:

1) It is too slow, but thats already going to be adressed in the next patch, so just noted.
Speed is important for a brawler like this, you want to get in 3k range with it.

2) Its plasma macrobatteries are a joke, because they are the same as on a Overlord, meaning they are weaker than those on the Emperor (?!)

3) Again plasma macro cannons....


Plasma macrocannons, or how to sabotage oneself

I think its rather obvious now that I have an axe of sorts to grind with the plasma macro - thingies.
They are the bane of the Tyrant, Overlord and Retribution, and to a lesser degree, the Emperor.
That is simply because

1) They are treated like standard macro batteries in terms of accuracy
2) unless they are heavy plasma macro (Emperor) they have inferior damage output compared with standard ones,
3)they have less critical chance as well.#

In my opinion, this could be addressed easily by

1) making them one separate weapon group, meaning no light, normal, heavy variant but instead just one unified plasma macrobattery/turret category with identical stats,
2) giving them at 9k/12k 20% more base accuracy than their standard cousins because with 40/20 % hit chance at 9k/12k range where the armor penetration upgrade cannot apply, they are already massivley handicapped, losing another 60/80% of total damage output is just telling the player to not even bother with it.
3) potentially granting them 25% armor piercing, but keeping the reduced critical chance.

That would have the added benefit of improving the Tyrant, Overlord and Retribution in one go as well, bringing them much closer to their supposed role.
If that proves to be too effective at countering Chaos' long range kiting style, maybe Imperial ships shouldn't have more than 9k base range, but then at least a base 60% hit chance at 9k range (with plasma weapons only, ofc). Otherwise you could just remove long range macrocannons altogether even though that would mean of killing a complete playstyle.

Quick note on the Overlord: Lorewise it is supposed to be faster and more manuverable than other Cruisers, its in-game stats do not reflect this (yet?)
Also Battlecruisers are in no way more sturdy than cruisers right now, that doesn't feel right. I think they should have 100 points more shield and at least 200 points more hull, since they also cost more than cruisers.


I generally agree with your whole post, just a few points that catch my attention.

It'd be nice to see plasma macros distinctly separated from standard macros. You've got 3 different groups (I'm generalising a lot here) of weapon for imperials, standard macro for close up, lances for medium to long range and plasma macro for long range.
Plasma macro has the lower fire rate obviously to balance out the extra range, now it would be nice for them to be a bit more accurate out at 9k - 12k just to define their use/niche, however too much extra accuracy would make them op, especially considering you can get an accuracy upgrade which makes them fairly useful even now.

Now it is perfectly fair to argue that this upgrade is necessary to make the ship good as the same goes for lance armed ships, you need those damage upgrades vs shields and extra range to really make the most out of them.

Pretty much, maybe a small buff to plasma macro accuracy would do the trick.
My main nitpick, is the weirdness of the ship loadout (which unfortunately I don't think can be changed due to canon) which mixes standard macro and plasma macro on some ships. This will always be a problem, because these weapons both sit at opposite ends of the spectrum, one is for close range, one for long range. Truth is, these ships will probably only be useful, if all your cruisers are versatile like so, so that you can capitalise on it rather than having one or two ships with no real battlefield purpose.

Good to see we're looking at plasma macros as they really have no place in the imperial arsenal at the moment.

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Raven
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Re: Thoughts on Imperium

Postby Raven » 20 March 2016, 08:06

@Lord Nirgal:
my comments on the ships are based not only on actual gameplay testing I did with them, but also by looking at their mathematically best performance potential under ideal circumstances. Now its important to note that I don't consider Overlords, for example, useless, the issue I have with the Overlord is that it's a Battlecruiser with LESS maximum firepower than a Dominator, which seems completly wrong to me, given that a Dominator also has a NC and costs less. Sure, the Overlord is more useful at 6k+ ranges than the Dominator, but that's a matter of how effective you play a Dominator. It is definitly possible to get in 3k range with them, and once you are, its shredding even Battleships.
The Overlord isn't as awesome at range as you think, first, it only has 2 dorsal lances, dealing half the dpm as a Gothics broadside, and its dpm with the plasmas isn't even worth considering at 12k range, bc even with accuracy upgrades its not even half the dpm of its own lances. You are grossly underestimating the effect of accuracy and armor on macros, especially in the case of the Tyrant that doesn't have the solid base dpm of lances and less dpm than a Dominator, so that its supposed range advantage is completly nullified.
I'd recommend taking a look at the DPM Excel sheet thread and this lovely sheet here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz7WU3 ... ef=2&pli=1 and test it out ingame. I did it and that's how I came to those conclusions.

About torpedoes: You raise an interesting point worth checking out, but how precisely do you think they should be used?
If you are manuvering your ships in close range engagements to face their prow at the enemy to unleash massive salvos you're losing the ability to do 180 degree fast turns to bombard with both broadsides. You simply don't have the plasma to do both and atleast I only manage to hit a full torpedo salvo on chaos ships when their engines are disabled, bc torps are too damn slow and chaos super fast.

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Shaftoe
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Re: Thoughts on Imperium

Postby Shaftoe » 20 March 2016, 08:09

GreySeer wrote:
Lord Nirgal wrote:probably adeptus mechanicus favor is a bit overpowered.


Overpowered? How if I may ask? In my opinion this favour completely useless and and only the favour of imperial navy is worse. Besides the additional ability that BS can't use brings nothing to the battle. 50% cheaper repair? Don't lose your ships or take other for 2 battles then the repair cost will be 100% cheaper and without any investment. Favours of the inquisition and adeptus astrates bring something to battle, adeptus mechanicus brings one more skill for no BS, and it supposed to be Overpowered?

Shaftoe wrote:Mechanicus should remain their kremlin-red color


And do you have any tech-priest to back it?


Probably I should answer your question impolitely. Instead, I'll give you one picture
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