Tactical Cogitators in MP

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MYNAME?
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Re: Tactical Cogitators in MP

Postby MYNAME? » 21 March 2016, 20:40

Candor wrote:
MYNAME? wrote:
MYNAME? wrote:


LOL the only people you will lure into a trap are noobs doubt a pro will take the bait as they always have recon probes and escort ships kamikazing gas clouds or on overwatch.

High Energy turn and AAF are not crutches..... They are meant to be used tactically or to do skill shots with torps or to line your ship up so it can keep attacking. It can also punish you in some scenerios if used carelessly.


Which is why you either don't give him the chance to get a look at you, or make sure he misinterprets what he sees. Edit: Or, hell, just make sure that avoiding the trap forces him into a sub-optimal situation.

And yes, HETs are crutches (At least AAF tanks your turn rate, although that's pretty irrelevant as long as you save some Bar for a HET at the end). Why can't you just think ahead and engage on a course where your torps line up anyway? Why can't you just line your ship up normally, like pretty much every navy on the planet did for about 300 years. They're crutches for people who can't plan their movment, and are a "get out of the mess I've gotten myself in" card.

How do you get punished using it carelessly? This isn't Starfleet Command, where you had a very high chance of ripping your ship in half when you pulled a HET, the chance of which went up the more you used it.


HET and AAF are not crutches it adds some speed to the game. And most people plan their moves out ahead of time. they use HET to make small corrections

TC on the other hand is the true get out of jail free card and the "Im to slow for a super badass maneuver and need this to accurately place all my bombs OR to avoid all the enemy abilities" button

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HERO
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Re: Tactical Cogitators in MP

Postby HERO » 21 March 2016, 20:42

Sagranda wrote:
HERO wrote:Here, I'll run a social experiment tonight. I will play the entire night using TC in every circumstance that I've argued against to showcase the following issues.

> Faster players are even faster, player that activates will have the initiative, and it does not benefit the reactive player.
> It ruins the pace of the game e.g. very anti-fun and ruins the flow of real-time battle.
> It trolls the other player.

Let's just see how much fun the other person on the opposite side of the screen will have, or how they will react.


Looks like a fun stream tonight then.


Trust me, neither of us will be having fun. Actions will indeed speak louder than words.

I just need to configure my brain to play like a total scrub/troll.

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Re: Tactical Cogitators in MP

Postby Flyingrhinoman » 21 March 2016, 22:44

I agree that the TC is unusual for a MP game but I really don't think its as bad as you say because while yo have the initiative to start all the other player has to do is also hit it and then they control the time end. Also the Devs are adamant that it remain as close to the table top as possible. So while this is an RTS it is going to be more like the traditional TT than a traditional RTS, with that in mind I don't think you will see the TC disappear from multiplayer as it is there to make the game be as close to the TT as possible because you can line up actions quickly with out having to be quick (like the TT). Also if you want the TC gone then lets bring all the RTs elements they add away too as they aretrying to achieve TT esque feel. So ships will be even slower, skills are gone. turns can only be mad every so often, ships never stop moving, and ships cant turn on a dime at any point. with all these gone, your apms are meaning less as the game becomes limits your ability to control much. In order to prevent this the TC allows the interesting new mechanics to be used with out overwhelming people. also the TC does cap micromanagement skill but that is not necessarily a bad thing, I don't see why it is, because it may be important in some games but it doesn't have to be in all. with that said if you feel that the skills are being wasted then go play another game. you trained and acquired these skills for certain games and now complain that they are either non impactful as everyone is level regardless of skill in that area, or that it gives you to much of an edge. To that I say pick one please and stop trying to tell the devs what their vision should be and let them flesh out their vision. This is the way they wanted the game to work and so if you don't like it then don't play.
For those who challenge the might of the Imperium I laugh at you as you desperately try to damage the armored prow while I watch you scrabble to doge my glorious swarm of torpedoes. Eldar please run away

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Re: Tactical Cogitators in MP

Postby HERO » 21 March 2016, 23:01

Your entire post contradicts itself. They are not adamant about sticking to the table top. There are instant cast bombs, statis weapons, high energy turns on battleships, entirely new ships, the list goes on and on. If they wanted to make this close to the table top, then why why isn't it turn based? And why is it "so fast" as the default game speed?

They are making an RTS game based on the BFG 40K universe. That much is clear.

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Re: Tactical Cogitators in MP

Postby MYNAME? » 21 March 2016, 23:03

Flyingrhinoman wrote:I agree that the TC is unusual for a MP game but I really don't think its as bad as you say because while yo have the initiative to start all the other player has to do is also hit it and then they control the time end. Also the Devs are adamant that it remain as close to the table top as possible. So while this is an RTS it is going to be more like the traditional TT than a traditional RTS, with that in mind I don't think you will see the TC disappear from multiplayer as it is there to make the game be as close to the TT as possible because you can line up actions quickly with out having to be quick (like the TT). Also if you want the TC gone then lets bring all the RTs elements they add away too as they aretrying to achieve TT esque feel. So ships will be even slower, skills are gone. turns can only be mad every so often, ships never stop moving, and ships cant turn on a dime at any point. with all these gone, your apms are meaning less as the game becomes limits your ability to control much. In order to prevent this the TC allows the interesting new mechanics to be used with out overwhelming people. also the TC does cap micromanagement skill but that is not necessarily a bad thing, I don't see why it is, because it may be important in some games but it doesn't have to be in all. with that said if you feel that the skills are being wasted then go play another game. you trained and acquired these skills for certain games and now complain that they are either non impactful as everyone is level regardless of skill in that area, or that it gives you to much of an edge. To that I say pick one please and stop trying to tell the devs what their vision should be and let them flesh out their vision. This is the way they wanted the game to work and so if you don't like it then don't play.


They should leave TC with Single Player and Costum game but keep it out of ranked... It annoying how easy it is to exploit TC with some builds and trolling the player. For example the TC/ Warp jump and massive bomb spam. Its stupid especially when people think they are "clutch" or "good" at the game when doing it. I want to see someone pull that off without the help of TC.

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Re: Tactical Cogitators in MP

Postby ScinFaxi » 21 March 2016, 23:14

I think it's good, it works both ways. It's not like they gain an advantage over you by using it.

But when you're playing 700+ games with 7 ships that have 2-4 abilities and their core abilities plus ordinance and ship movement controls.... Yea it's a lot going on.

Like a friend of mine said to me, he doesn't use it because he banks on being faster than his opponent. I agree to varying degree, though my brain works faster than my hands, so even with every ability hotkey'd.

Sometimes I do need time to click and place and move and push. The ui is a little clunky and sometimes doesn't drop where I click.. so extra time to drag and drop again!

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Re: Tactical Cogitators in MP

Postby nandemonai » 21 March 2016, 23:18

the only way I see to make it bearable is to give it a flat duration (15s?) and limit its number of uses per player per match. It should have a cooldown, and a visible countdown of maybe 5s so all players can prepare before it starts.

Still, I'd rather see it gone.
Last edited by nandemonai on 22 March 2016, 01:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tactical Cogitators in MP

Postby HERO » 21 March 2016, 23:52

ScinFaxi wrote:I think it's good, it works both ways. It's not like they gain an advantage over you by using it.


That's where you're wrong, because the person who activates will have the initiative. Did you read the last couple of pages? I've explained this to great extent.

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Re: Tactical Cogitators in MP

Postby ScinFaxi » 22 March 2016, 00:02

HERO wrote:
ScinFaxi wrote:I think it's good, it works both ways. It's not like they gain an advantage over you by using it.


That's where you're wrong, because the person who activates will have the initiative. Did you read the last couple of pages? I've explained this to great extent.


Of which I disagree entirely. They have the initiative because they are using it for their personal needs, of which gives you multiple theories on what it is. Thus countering with movements of your own. Like I said on one of my earlier posts. TC gimps the player using it imo. But that's because majority of peoples apm are <100.


I also don't have time to scroll through the walls of text that I've seen here, from the bad players that fill this forum.

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Re: Tactical Cogitators in MP

Postby HERO » 22 March 2016, 00:12

ScinFaxi wrote:
HERO wrote:
ScinFaxi wrote:I think it's good, it works both ways. It's not like they gain an advantage over you by using it.


That's where you're wrong, because the person who activates will have the initiative. Did you read the last couple of pages? I've explained this to great extent.


Of which I disagree entirely. They have the initiative because they are using it for their personal needs, of which gives you multiple theories on what it is. Thus countering with movements of your own. Like I said on one of my earlier posts. TC gimps the player using it imo. But that's because majority of peoples apm are <100.

I also don't have time to scroll through the walls of text that I've seen here, from the bad players that fill this forum.


I have no idea what you're trying to say. Your examples are very confusing and misleading.

>The person has intiatiive because he's using it for personal needs.
>The reacting player has multiple theories on what those personal needs are.
>Apparently he can counter it with movements of their own, (as the reactive player, who has to first adjust to the sudden tempo change, but then guess what his opponent is actually doing, this player is apparently at the advantage)
>Therefore, TC gimps the person using it.
>Because most people's APM are <100.
>I don't like to read because people are bad.

???

I sucker punch you. Therefore, you have the advantage. Makes sense mate.


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