Weak AI, underpowered lances and damn broken Nova cannon

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Rolepgeek
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Re: Weak AI, underpowered lances and damn broken Nova cannon

Postby Rolepgeek » 23 May 2016, 01:22

How much of a difference do you think that actually makes, though, Bludfist?

I'm talking about something like the current accuracy ratings applying to Cruisers, while each step up in size reduces accuracy falloff by 10/20%, and each step down in size increases accuracy falloff by the same. LIke I said, might not be a good idea, all in all, but it's something to consider.

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Re: Weak AI, underpowered lances and damn broken Nova cannon

Postby CALiGeR190 » 23 May 2016, 11:11

Can you stop complaining about the Nova Cannon?
It's already been nerfed into near-uselessness, the last thing it needs is another nerf.
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Re: Weak AI, underpowered lances and damn broken Nova cannon

Postby angelshard » 23 May 2016, 13:46

CALiGeR190 wrote:Can you stop complaining about the Nova Cannon?
It's already been nerfed into near-uselessness, the last thing it needs is another nerf.


To be fair he's arguing it needs a boost

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Re: Weak AI, underpowered lances and damn broken Nova cannon

Postby MYNAME? » 24 May 2016, 21:04

Shaftoe wrote:
warsinger2 wrote:
Shaftoe wrote:
There is no place for nerfing Lances further. Clearly. It's such an obvoius thing that it lacks damage. Wanna powerful armor-piercing 100% accurate shot? Then pay your time for it!


He meant remove the 3k AP upgrade from weapon batteries so that they can no longer ignore most armor to keep that forte for the lances.
So if you face heavy armor it makes more sense to have lance boats instead of massed weapon batteries with the AP upgrade which would make lances more worth while.

Keeping in mind the upcoming space marine DLC the 3k AP upgrade has to go anyways.


To make myself clear:
I understand. But it won't help the situation, only ruin this way of use of macro cannons as well. Lances are long range armor piercer, so they should gain more power to be efficient. While Macro batteries demand 3k distance, which is not always possible.

The lances beg for more direct approach, as they can't even harm a frigate somehow severely. And why do you think AP will go?


AP will go because space marines will get rekt by orks and imperials with the way AP ammo turns armor to a flat 25% at 3 k Space marines big advantage of armor superiority will count for nothing and due to them going to be pricey they will tend to be outnumbered which in this game tends to be a game loser more often than not.

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Re: Weak AI, underpowered lances and damn broken Nova cannon

Postby Imperator5 » 25 May 2016, 19:13

MYNAME? wrote:
Shaftoe wrote:
warsinger2 wrote:
He meant remove the 3k AP upgrade from weapon batteries so that they can no longer ignore most armor to keep that forte for the lances.
So if you face heavy armor it makes more sense to have lance boats instead of massed weapon batteries with the AP upgrade which would make lances more worth while.

Keeping in mind the upcoming space marine DLC the 3k AP upgrade has to go anyways.


To make myself clear:
I understand. But it won't help the situation, only ruin this way of use of macro cannons as well. Lances are long range armor piercer, so they should gain more power to be efficient. While Macro batteries demand 3k distance, which is not always possible.

The lances beg for more direct approach, as they can't even harm a frigate somehow severely. And why do you think AP will go?


AP will go because space marines will get rekt by orks and imperials with the way AP ammo turns armor to a flat 25% at 3 k Space marines big advantage of armor superiority will count for nothing and due to them going to be pricey they will tend to be outnumbered which in this game tends to be a game loser more often than not.


Agreed. Also, novas still suck. They should be accurate but need LOS to fire, and should not fire at blips. Right now, they are not worth taking at all. Overlord and Tyrant are just plain better choices.
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Re: Weak AI, underpowered lances and damn broken Nova cannon

Postby MYNAME? » 25 May 2016, 21:26

Imperator5 wrote:
MYNAME? wrote:
Shaftoe wrote:
To make myself clear:
I understand. But it won't help the situation, only ruin this way of use of macro cannons as well. Lances are long range armor piercer, so they should gain more power to be efficient. While Macro batteries demand 3k distance, which is not always possible.

The lances beg for more direct approach, as they can't even harm a frigate somehow severely. And why do you think AP will go?


AP will go because space marines will get rekt by orks and imperials with the way AP ammo turns armor to a flat 25% at 3 k Space marines big advantage of armor superiority will count for nothing and due to them going to be pricey they will tend to be outnumbered which in this game tends to be a game loser more often than not.


Agreed. Also, novas still suck. They should be accurate but need LOS to fire, and should not fire at blips. Right now, they are not worth taking at all. Overlord and Tyrant are just plain better choices.


Removing AP will definantly revive classes like the gothic and lunar because those will be the ships you wanna field when fighting the space marines. It will also give imperials some more survivability vs orks and your 75 armor will finally matter and you can fly right past orks without losing too much health unless both collide head on.

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Re: Weak AI, underpowered lances and damn broken Nova cannon

Postby Imperator5 » 26 May 2016, 08:34

MYNAME? wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:
MYNAME? wrote:
AP will go because space marines will get rekt by orks and imperials with the way AP ammo turns armor to a flat 25% at 3 k Space marines big advantage of armor superiority will count for nothing and due to them going to be pricey they will tend to be outnumbered which in this game tends to be a game loser more often than not.


Agreed. Also, novas still suck. They should be accurate but need LOS to fire, and should not fire at blips. Right now, they are not worth taking at all. Overlord and Tyrant are just plain better choices.


Removing AP will definantly revive classes like the gothic and lunar because those will be the ships you wanna field when fighting the space marines. It will also give imperials some more survivability vs orks and your 75 armor will finally matter and you can fly right past orks without losing too much health unless both collide head on.


Agreed, as much as I love that upgrade, removing or changing (to something less potent and less range dependant, like 10-15% reduction at all ranges) it will fix a lot of balance problems and save my SPESH MEHREENS.
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Re: Weak AI, underpowered lances and damn broken Nova cannon

Postby warsinger2 » 01 June 2016, 20:55

Shaftoe wrote:
warsinger2 wrote:
Shaftoe wrote:
There is no place for nerfing Lances further. Clearly. It's such an obvoius thing that it lacks damage. Wanna powerful armor-piercing 100% accurate shot? Then pay your time for it!


He meant remove the 3k AP upgrade from weapon batteries so that they can no longer ignore most armor to keep that forte for the lances.
So if you face heavy armor it makes more sense to have lance boats instead of massed weapon batteries with the AP upgrade which would make lances more worth while.

Keeping in mind the upcoming space marine DLC the 3k AP upgrade has to go anyways.


To make myself clear:
I understand. But it won't help the situation, only ruin this way of use of macro cannons as well. Lances are long range armor piercer, so they should gain more power to be efficient. While Macro batteries demand 3k distance, which is not always possible.

The lances beg for more direct approach, as they can't even harm a frigate somehow severely. And why do you think AP will go?


Some people already gave the answer since unless SM receive something none canon like their all around heavy armour will count for very little. If you look at the original TT rules (yes I know this is not TT but many problems this game has is because sometimes the rules are adhered to and sometimes not, the greatest rule violator are the Elder and everyone can see what that has done to the game, the TT was fairly balanced, this game is not!) a SM battle barge costs a massive 425p in the TT, more than a Despoiler, it has less shields and less turrets than a IN BB or a Chaos BB, its weapon batteries are not that impressive and its launch capabilities and torps are ok at best, it does however has strength 8 bombardment cannons, left front and right firing arcs, this makes it, together with its armour, very strong, unfortunately those cannons are rather short ranged. On the TT it is very strong, vs a 3k ap upgrade Emperor the SM battlebarge has a good chance of losing if we take the current state of the game into the account.

So for the SM faction to work they must either be able to ignore the AP macro cannon upgrade or the upgrade must go altogether which would make lance boats in general much more worth while (as some others have already pointed out as well). If you generally buff lances certain chaos boats get too strong, Acheron for example.

Nova cannons need some better accuracy but a little less humpf or longer cool downs, accuracy right now is....pitiful I do agree, the looted NC need a much higher chance to blow up.

Eldar need to lose turrets altogether (according to the TT rules they do not even have those) but need a buff to their fighters so they can better act as a turret substitute or get at least reduced turret values since they can already outrun bombers.

Orks need more customize points the BC should have at least 3 to give Orks some more versatility beyond prow mega cannons.Actually cruisers should already have 3, to compensate no more than 2 vessels of the same class and configuration can be fielded otherwise the local mech boys get too jealous and start disobeying orders (just a suggestion).

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Re: Weak AI, underpowered lances and damn broken Nova cannon

Postby Amoc » 02 June 2016, 16:33

Sadly all of this is far too little, far too later. The player base is gone and the release of the SM isn't going to fix that now. We're at <500 at peak hours now daily and we're going to see it continue to drop. How likely do you think it's going to be that Tindalos invests heavily in maintaining that number of players?

They said they would do so, of course, but that's likely more in the realm of a few overpriced DLC packs that will fail to garner significant interest. Beyond that the best they can hope to do is a heavily revamped sequel/expansion. The changes needed to revive the player base are so broad that nothing short of a huge overhaul is going to bring people back.

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Re: Weak AI, underpowered lances and damn broken Nova cannon

Postby Seldoria » 02 June 2016, 19:14

MYNAME? wrote:
Shaftoe wrote:
warsinger2 wrote:
He meant remove the 3k AP upgrade from weapon batteries so that they can no longer ignore most armor to keep that forte for the lances.
So if you face heavy armor it makes more sense to have lance boats instead of massed weapon batteries with the AP upgrade which would make lances more worth while.

Keeping in mind the upcoming space marine DLC the 3k AP upgrade has to go anyways.


To make myself clear:
I understand. But it won't help the situation, only ruin this way of use of macro cannons as well. Lances are long range armor piercer, so they should gain more power to be efficient. While Macro batteries demand 3k distance, which is not always possible.

The lances beg for more direct approach, as they can't even harm a frigate somehow severely. And why do you think AP will go?


AP will go because space marines will get rekt by orks and imperials with the way AP ammo turns armor to a flat 25% at 3 k Space marines big advantage of armor superiority will count for nothing and due to them going to be pricey they will tend to be outnumbered which in this game tends to be a game loser more often than not.

I think you underestimate the concept of Armor in this game.
Sure, at super close range, their Armor will be equal to that of "most" enemies(if they have AP Macro), however, SM are not Orks and can engage pretty adequately from 6k+ ranges in terms of accuracy(will be equal to Imp I guess).

Strike Cruisers(about the size of a Dauntless and about as fast too), with 75 Armor and a Bombardment Cannon(upgraded to 9k range) could possibly be a lot of trouble and very hard to get rid of.

Suddenly, the Gothic's Lances, and the Lunar's versatile kit will be good assest for the Imperial Navy.

To TS:
1) AI is always in need of a boost. That is true for most games. :D
2) Overall, I think Imp lances are fine(Chaos Lances too). Maybe reduce the cost of the Gothic and Lunar a bit(4 points?). That way, you might be able to squeeze out an extra Escort or upgrade 2 Escorts to a LC or a LC to another Cruiser.
3) Novas are pretty good vs Mass Escorts. Even if all they do is blowing away shields, it is one thing less standing between you and a pretty explosion(especially if you hit several ships).


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