Upon further reflection

Talk about Battlefleet Gothic: Armada here!
Darkfine
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Upon further reflection

Postby Darkfine » 15 May 2016, 19:11

I am trying really hard to not get angry about this, I really am. Battlefleet Gothic is easily one of my all time favorite games and to see it dragged through the mud that is Armada is making that difficult. All of my games, 100% of them are not a test of skill or cunning are even APM, as retarded as that concept is for a game like this. It is a test of stubbornness.

How willing am I to subject myself to 10 minute stretches of chasing things around while my hulls get whittled away by lances and bombers. Who thought this was was a good idea? I mean, did you people even load the game up one time before putting this out to the public? Did not once someone stop and say "gee, we really need to tighten up how these four fleets interact with one another".

Bonus, I know I am not the only one saying these things, and here we are about to get the 5th and 6th fleets to a mechanically broken game.

I find it interesting how there is zero accountability in the gaming industry. I mean I guess there cant be right? If gamers could just get there money back from half backed studios no one would bother making games at all I guess.

So in essence we need companies like this and morons like me to eat up their spoon fed BS so responsible studios will have a market to support them.

An a side note, I realize it takes time to code and fix things and the fanboys can scream "be patient" as loudly as they like but the issue is that was an issue at all. This is either laziness or incompetence, neither of which can be acceptable. If we as consumers, supporters and fanatics of this industry, allow this kind of blatant retardation of what should be an endless pursuit of perfection and don't hold these people responsible then we become just as much to blame for the market as they are.

Rant over, just sick of having to pick through buckets and buckets of crap to find the odd good game.

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Bludfist
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Bludfist » 15 May 2016, 19:27

Thats how the chaos fleet plays...thats how they played on TT so thats how they play here.

Furthermore tons of known counters exist to everything:

they try to spam bombers at you? 1-2 defensive carriers spamming fighters easily counter carrier fleets, they try to CC you with stasis bombs you counter that with plasma bombs. Zoning torpedo walls, or nova cannon shots can control the path that the enemy kiting fleet can maneuver to as they are forced to dodge or take dmg and you also have acess to your own stasis bombs.

Im goign to assume your IN because their the ones always complaing on the fourms about everything being unfair :lol:

In which case chaos should nt be an issue as IN vs Chaos are one of the most balanced match ups in the game

plasma macros with lock on lets you have trading potential even at chaos's prefed engagement range and mezo engines lets you chase well too
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
Image

Darkfine
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Darkfine » 15 May 2016, 19:44

One to two defensive carriers? That is my entire fleet? Okay got the counter, now, still can't catch them. Torpedoes? Yeah well defense turrets are a thing. Knock out their turrets? Can't catch them. Nova Cannons? Well if I am playing defense carriers I can't take them. So lets say I roll the dice and pick cannons over carriers, great except my hit rate with cannons so far is zero. I can lead a shot just perfectly and watch it land in Toronto.

Stasis Bombs? Well since they are naturally faster then me they can sit on their throttle for when I try to put bombs down.

This isn't just a Chaos problem, it is an Eldar problem.

You mention the TT game so I will assume you have even a passing familiarity with it. That being said I will remind you a few things. Eldar were only quick when they were able to use the sunward table edge, which created a space to outplay them, Chaos were indeed really quick in the TT but Nova Cannons had at worst a 50% chance of creating a meaningful play. It was usually much better than that though as again you were able to set up scenarios where no matter how the cannon scattered there was something to take advantage of. Also you know you could fire off the cannon more than once or twice in a game. Torpedoes weren't tits useless in the TT either, they were actually a threat. Here even if a few make it past the defensive fire their effect is minimal as far as my observations have gone.

Icing on the cake? The few times I have gotten into a broadside situation with my cruiser against an Orc or Chaos player the damage has at best been equal. With boarding parties and all. So I am fighting this frustrating game of can't catch me with the payoff being marginal if I do.

I will grant that I am new and don't know probably any of the ins or outs but that is still a relevant and important view point to consider when thinking of the viability of a game. Everyone is new to every game at one point, and how fun that period of learning and adjusting is has a huge impact on the ultimate success of a game.

Edit* You keep mentioning things I can do that cost renown to get. Renown is gained in one of two ways, quickly with wins or even close loses or slowly by losing badly/consistently. Care to take a guess at which of those is less fun than the other while also being the most likely? Also, you shouldn't have to do a lot of work to have an even playing field. Which again points to broken mechanics.

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Bludfist
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Bludfist » 15 May 2016, 20:17

2 mars or dictators taking up all your fleet points? Are you complaining about low point games? cause at 700 points you can easily do 2 mars +2 dominators or 1 mars and 3 dominators...and then i read that this is another eldar rant thread... just spam sword escorts, that how you beat eldar as IN, with mass swords
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
Image

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MadDemiurg
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby MadDemiurg » 15 May 2016, 20:38

Vs Chaos (low point/level games):

-Get Dauntless MK 1 with Enhanced induction Coils
-Set prow engagement
-vs carriers try to stay clumped up to abuse intersecting turet ranges
-when leveling up get +3k lance range and +1 lightinig strike
-???
-profit

Purplefluffybunny
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Purplefluffybunny » 15 May 2016, 20:39

Darkfine wrote:I am trying really hard to not get angry about this, I really am. Battlefleet Gothic is easily one of my all time favorite games and to see it dragged through the mud that is Armada is making that difficult. All of my games, 100% of them are not a test of skill or cunning are even APM, as retarded as that concept is for a game like this. It is a test of stubbornness.

How willing am I to subject myself to 10 minute stretches of chasing things around while my hulls get whittled away by lances and bombers. Who thought this was was a good idea? I mean, did you people even load the game up one time before putting this out to the public? Did not once someone stop and say "gee, we really need to tighten up how these four fleets interact with one another".

Bonus, I know I am not the only one saying these things, and here we are about to get the 5th and 6th fleets to a mechanically broken game.

I find it interesting how there is zero accountability in the gaming industry. I mean I guess there cant be right? If gamers could just get there money back from half backed studios no one would bother making games at all I guess.

So in essence we need companies like this and morons like me to eat up their spoon fed BS so responsible studios will have a market to support them.

An a side note, I realize it takes time to code and fix things and the fanboys can scream "be patient" as loudly as they like but the issue is that was an issue at all. This is either laziness or incompetence, neither of which can be acceptable. If we as consumers, supporters and fanatics of this industry, allow this kind of blatant retardation of what should be an endless pursuit of perfection and don't hold these people responsible then we become just as much to blame for the market as they are.

Rant over, just sick of having to pick through buckets and buckets of crap to find the odd good game.


Hit me up on steam and we can play some 2v2 together and get you up and running and proficient with the basics.

Darkfine
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Darkfine » 15 May 2016, 20:46

Bludfist wrote:2 mars or dictators taking up all your fleet points? Are you complaining about low point games? cause at 700 points you can easily do 2 mars +2 dominators or 1 mars and 3 dominators...and then i read that this is another eldar rant thread... just spam sword escorts, that how you beat eldar as IN, with mass swords


Well that sounds fine at 700 points but I'm at 315. So yeah, two carriers is my fleet. And again, still can't catch them. So instead of slowly dying the game turns into a stalemate?

This isn't an Eldar rant, it is a game rant. I am equal opportunity.

As for your solution to Eldar. Am I mistaken in the thought that ships only level up if they are in the actual match? Cause spamming escorts means my line ships have to sit out. Not looking for solutions for broken mechanics, looking for the mechanics to not be broken.

Thanks for the suggestion though, I have already stumbled across it and it does work. Shouldn't have to do it though.

Rolepgeek
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Rolepgeek » 15 May 2016, 22:09

Here's the thing. Slow fleets require more strategy to play than fast fleets. You have to plan for where they're going to go, not just where you will, box them in, etc. Because your fleet is slower, it doesn't require as much micromanagement, and you can keep more ships around. Granted, at this point you're probably gonna have a bit of difficulty with that, but that's how the grind goes. Developers implemented a work-way-up point. Your ships still gain experience on a loss, your admiral does as well, if less.

If you're trying to 'catch' them, you're playing it wrong, basically. You don't catch them, not without a plan for when they use their own mobility skills to try and get away. You box them in, one ship at a time if necessary, get in close, and when they try to get away, they're either in range of one of your other ships, or they've used up their mobility skills, and your next nearest can get close and start pounding away. Harder against lance fleets to truly win the broadside battle, but that's what judicious use of ramming and torps is for. How you go about dealing the damage, catching them, etc., is up to you, whether you go for tough-as-nails ships that can burst forward rapidly when needed, or firepower with enough range that you don't have to get quite that close and personal, and can focus more fire on a few ships.

Defensive turrets really shouldn't be giving you too much trouble with torps. Use Cobras/Widowmakers to spam them one after another in the path of isolated ships, the spotting lets you send Assault Boats to clear off Fighter Screens a bit (and hopefully break an engine), and even then some should get through. Melta Torps will accomplish more in this regard, particularly since both Chaos and Eldar don't have great armor anywhere in particular.

A lot of it does have to do with Upgrades and Skills, though, unfortunately. That's how you counter their own upgrades and skills. If neither of you have them, then it really comes down to whether you can truly box them in or not. Asteroid fields won't do nearly as much damage to you as them, so use them to try and block their movement. Torpedoes are more useful to force them to react than anything else, and helps break up formations. 315 isn't much, but they should only be able to afford a few ships too, at that point. Use escorts liberally. Yeah, your line ships won't get experience. So? They can get experience once you're higher level, or you can warp out ASAP on missions you don't think you can win if you bring pure line ships, to level them up, if you're that concerned with it. But if you're looking for Renown and higher fleet point totals, Escort ships will get you that, if you use them to win. Tabletop encouraged use of escorts, I really wish this game did too, but they're decent enough to be quite useful. Lance fire isn't that great against 25/25/25, Two or three cobras(or better yet, Firestorms) with Defensive turret upgrades are damned effective at clearing out bomber waves. You said you're at 315? Try going for a pair of Dauntlesses and two Firestorms and/or Swords.

But if you're not asking for advice, just telling us that the game devs suck for not making it so you can always catch up to them in under ten minutes. There's many, many ways to counter the fleets you're complaining about, even if they aren't easy. Most rely on flanking. Once you can get a Dictator plus two other line ships, it should get a lot more manageable.

Demoulius
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Demoulius » 15 May 2016, 22:29

Torpedoes are useless? Huh, you must be using different ones then mine :shock:

The Dictator is a fine ship. Within brawling range it is pretty damn terrifying. You almost cant shoot down bombers/assault craft coming out of them, cant dodge their torpedoes and their batteries get to fire as well. It also counters carrier fleets handsomely. It does require alot more micro and the proper upgrades to make the most milage out of it but its a very good ship.

If someone tries to kite you and they used skills for that, use silent running. You get cloaked again and after a while turn into a blip, and they cant fire at you anymore.

Micro Warp Jump allows you to jump a distance and gain up on them.
Enhanced Induction Cells. Can use all ahead full twice to close the gap to them.
Taunt can force one to turn around if you are within 7.5km. (combined with the previous 2 skills a good way to catch kiting ships)

Non of the other skills will allow you to get closer but theres still plenty of options to gain up on them. Essentially you are trying to beat a fleet at its own game and then complain that they are beating you. Dont. Fight on your own terms and where your fleet is the strongest.

Darkfine
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Re: Upon further reflection

Postby Darkfine » 15 May 2016, 23:42

I am not trying to beat them at their own game. I am trying to interact with them at all. I can't not interact with them as they have longer range than I do. I can't just sit on an objective cause there aren't any, and even if there were they out range me.

What I am hearing is there are tools to deal with this. I just have to put up with hours of frustration to get it? Why? What the hell kind of game design is that.


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