When is it ok to "be mad?" Keep it civil

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BeverageTyrant
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When is it ok to "be mad?" Keep it civil

Postby BeverageTyrant » 13 May 2016, 14:57

Seems like the anger out there is getting more...potent? Loud? Prolific? I see quite a few posters on here that seem to shout/insult down those who have a negative view of the game as it currently exists. I think any reasonable person would agree the above two statements are true. We're approaching a month after release, the Steam charts has shown a steady and marked decline in players, the Steam Forums are pretty much negativity personified, the sub Reddit is paltry, and even this forum shows more aggravation than acclaim. Its hard to avoid.

I'm not going to list the issues with the game or its developers, we all know it already. What I want to ask you, all of you, is at what point is it ok to "get angry" at the state of the game? Should anyone have the right to feel disappointed or upset with the way the game has launched, or is a players opinion of the game moot once they have purchased it?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

randuir
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Re: When is it ok to "be mad?" Keep it civil

Postby randuir » 13 May 2016, 15:07

Personally, I believe people have all the rights to be angry... as long as they do it in the privacy of their own homes and keep it out of public forums. In a public forum, please stick to well reasoned discourse instead of angry shouting. This goes for both sides of the argument, btw. You mentioned the people defending the game, but I've seen those angry with the game getting argumentative and "trolly" in their complaining posts as well.

randuir
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Re: When is it ok to "be mad?" Keep it civil

Postby randuir » 13 May 2016, 15:17

Oh, btw, if you want to have a civil discourse, could you try and keep rethoric tricks/ fallacies out of it? I think you did a "no true Scotsman" and a false dilemma.

Cripple X
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Re: When is it ok to "be mad?" Keep it civil

Postby Cripple X » 13 May 2016, 15:37

I feel like I understand both sides of the argument. I get why people are angry and I am absolutely okay with people expressing their dissatisfaction as long as they do so without insults. Just because somebody has a different opinion than you does not mean they are an idiot, nor does it mean that their argument is necessarily any less rational.

I feel like a lot of the anger comes from the state of gaming lately, frankly. This whole greenlight/early access/day one dlc trend has encouraged developers and publishers to push out games that aren't finished. Do I think BFG: A launched before it was finished? Honestly, yes, I do. I think Tindalos fell into that trap, a.k.a. "It's mostly done. we can launch." I understand why people are upset at that. I am upset at that.

That said, I do feel like I should defend Tindalos. From what they've said and done here on the forums, I genuinely believe they have the best intentions for BFG: A even if I don't necessarily share all of their opinions on every topic. I do think they are working and trying to fix issues but they are a small studio and that stuff takes time. We're not dealing with EA, Blizzard, or Ubisoft here. They can't throw 150 people at the problem and bust a patch out in three days. That also means that everyone is busy working on the game and they can't be on the forums constantly. I wish we had better communication too. Right after launch it was great. It's fallen off somewhat, and while I understand why, I can also understand the frustration that may cause by making you feel like you are being ignored. Nothing makes me feel worse than a company who ignores my concerns or issues. That is not a good feeling especially after they took your money. I understand that they are trying, but they obviously can't be in all places at all times. Maybe they should hire a community rep?

Overall, I am happy with BFG:A. Is it perfect? No, but I do feel like Tindalos is doing their best to try and fix what's broken or missing. I think they deserve the time to try and do that. I'm behind them on that.
The Emperor is master of the galaxy, but the Captain is master of his ship.

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: When is it ok to "be mad?" Keep it civil

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 13 May 2016, 17:11

Lets be realistic here, the people getting mad about BFG:A are likely children (in age or mentality). Adults don't typically get mad over a video game. They might be overly blunt but there's a huge difference between being a screaming petulent brat and being overly direct about things.

So the question these people need to ask themseles is: are they adults or are they children? That in itself should quell some of the excessively rude posts we're seeing lately.

Gorthunk
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Re: When is it ok to "be mad?" Keep it civil

Postby Gorthunk » 13 May 2016, 17:29

Cripple X wrote:Overall, I am happy with BFG:A. Is it perfect? No, but I do feel like Tindalos is doing their best to try and fix what's broken or missing. I think they deserve the time to try and do that. I'm behind them on that.


But is it worth you spending more money down the line if you've seen the game release at a Beta functionality level and bought it at basically full price? Sadly, spending money and giving people time has done a lot of harm to the game industry. That's what has lead to the disproportionate creep in dollar per hour of content and the increase in microtransactions and DLC for things that should arguably be part of the game you already bought or released alongside enough content to justify their price.

I'm all for giving people a shot but video games just aren't marketed that way. You buy it, and if you feel you didn't get your money's worth you are SoL. Even if you don't like the game, you financially supported it (making the game more successful) and all you can do to show your dislike is complain, critique, and dissuade people from purchasing the game. There's a point we let many games, especially early access games, ride on our desire for them to meet the promises (real or imagined) set at the game's announcement and then there's no recourse if/when the developers take the game a direction you don't want it to go. You pay for a product expecting it to be something you will enjoy, and maybe for awhile it is, but if it's dramatically changed and stops delivering you just have to hope you got your money's worth. Unfortunately in buying a game, even just to try it and let it sit, you're telling the market that you want more of this type of game, and the market sometimes doesn't grab the really magical parts (hence the proliferation of microtransactions instead of compelling mechanics). It's exacerbated by the sometimes drastic changes that happen, and games that were great when you bought them are emulated at later states in development, maybe when they're in a state where you feel you would never have bought the game. It's a luxury industry but it's one of the most customer-exploitative industries there is... and that's for the GOOD publishers.

In short, yes you can be angry at the development path a game takes. You paid good money for it, and no matter what the game turns into those dollars are treated like support for the game in its current state (even if they turn a game you paid full price for F2P and cut out half the content unless you pay more money, again). You should, of course, keep your complaints (and rebuttals to complaints) civil, but it's understandable to be frustrated when things get further and further from "better."

Adrmial Seraph wrote:Lets be realistic here, the people getting mad about BFG:A are likely children (in age or mentality). Adults don't typically get mad over a video game. They might be overly blunt but there's a huge difference between being a screaming petulent brat and being overly direct about things.

So the question these people need to ask themseles is: are they adults or are they children? That in itself should quell some of the excessively rude posts we're seeing lately.


Posts like this aren't constructive. It's offhanded but with your word choice it's ambiguous whether you're just namecalling anyone with a complaint a child, thus discarding their opinion because it was critical or "rude." Maybe that's not what you mean, but the amount of people mislabeling critical statements as negative/offensive/"rude" is much, much larger than it should be.

BeverageTyrant
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Re: When is it ok to "be mad?" Keep it civil

Postby BeverageTyrant » 13 May 2016, 17:48

As i thought, the "civility" thing is going to be challenging for some. Name calling people who make a complaint kind of goes against the point of the thread. So, because someone may be mad at the state of the game, they are "children?" Please. Just stop there before you make it worse for yourself. If this was true, by your logic, you had better NEVER have complained about service at a resteraunt, a sports team, your kids grades, a service call from a Utility Company, your ISP, etc. Otherwise, you're a hypocrite.

The idea of a community rep I'm not sure works anymore. They went from silence, which was hurting them, to make several posts a couple weeks ago (which I think bought them some time and was seen as a good step by most in the community) giving grand plans and a philosophy that many (myself included) took issue with , and then radio silence since. No patch, no postings. At this point, I'm not sure there's a happy medium. If Tindalos had kept a running commentary or been more in touch with the players from the start, the situation may be much different. That's speculation since it didn't happen that way.

I'm simply interested in knowing if a player who takes issue with the game or how its being handled, has a right to complain or be remorseful for having bought a product that did not come out how (they, the buyer) think it should have/was advertised/has played thus far.

Cripple X
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Re: When is it ok to "be mad?" Keep it civil

Postby Cripple X » 13 May 2016, 18:08

Gorthunk wrote:
Cripple X wrote:Overall, I am happy with BFG:A. Is it perfect? No, but I do feel like Tindalos is doing their best to try and fix what's broken or missing. I think they deserve the time to try and do that. I'm behind them on that.


But is it worth you spending more money down the line if you've seen the game release at a Beta functionality level and bought it at basically full price? Sadly, spending money and giving people time has done a lot of harm to the game industry. That's what has lead to the disproportionate creep in dollar per hour of content and the increase in microtransactions and DLC for things that should arguably be part of the game you already bought or released alongside enough content to justify their price.

I think we agree almost completely. The first part of my post lamented the state of the early access market that currently exists. It's a shitty trend in the industry and it needs to stop.

Would I spend more money on this game down the line? Yes, I would provided that that content was polished and good. I think the current content is great for the most part, I enjoy it a lot, but I admit there's some stuff that's missing. My only real problem is that Tindalos released the game when could/should have let it stay in Beta another month or two to get everything implemented. I'm not sure why they didn't do that. I suspect they didn't because they are a small studio and money is a factor. I certainly don't know for sure, but that's the only reason that makes much sense to me. Maybe they needed the money from sales to actually finish development? I don't know. I can only speculate. From what the Devs themselves have said the initial sales were great and that is helping pay for new development. Frankly, I think that move may have hurt them in the long run with people who see the game's initial state and write it off. Again, I don't know.

I think people who are upset have every right to be upset. I'm certainly not saying that they don't. I'm just saying that I do honestly believe Tindalos has every intention of delivering all the features of a complete game as soon as they are able. If people are unhappy about that, that's fine. Just don't support it. I'll be here enjoying the game for what it is and what it will be. Just my two cents.
The Emperor is master of the galaxy, but the Captain is master of his ship.

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angelshard
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Re: When is it ok to "be mad?" Keep it civil

Postby angelshard » 14 May 2016, 08:29

Honestly I don't think anyone (bar a few obvious trolls) take an issue with people complaining about the game.

The problem with many of the rage quit posts have been that they are entirely negative and very often implies that the devs never listens to the community and generally don't care about the game.
Both of these statement are (in my view) completely false.

If you genuinely feel that you haven't gotten what you paid for and that you've been ripped off with an unfinished product, fair and legal. But don't make a post saying "I hate everything about this game!" That's not really constructive.


In the end though I find most of the problems is that there have been a polarization of opinions that can be boiled down to:
If you support the devs you're a blind fanboy and if you criticize you're a whiner.

Adrmial Seraph
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Re: When is it ok to "be mad?" Keep it civil

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 15 May 2016, 08:18

Gorthunk wrote:Posts like this aren't constructive. It's offhanded but with your word choice it's ambiguous whether you're just namecalling anyone with a complaint a child, thus discarding their opinion because it was critical or "rude." Maybe that's not what you mean, but the amount of people mislabeling critical statements as negative/offensive/"rude" is much, much larger than it should be.


This is why you don't make assumptions if you have questions. I type exactly what I mean and I'm direct. If you add additional meaning, that's your problem, not mine.

I also differentiated being direct from being rude. There's an ocean between calling a spade a spade and throwing a tantrum. No one is dismissing legit complaints but how you communicate dictates whether you're taken seriosuly or not, much like real life.
Last edited by Adrmial Seraph on 16 May 2016, 10:55, edited 1 time in total.


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