Please remove taunt from the game

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angelshard
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Re: Please remove taunt from the game

Postby angelshard » 09 May 2016, 12:47

No one is saying the skill shouldn't be replaced with something else. What we're arguing for is that it's a hamfisted mechanic that takes more out of the game that it gives. Mjw, EIC, stasis and MoS all gives you options to catch up without removing the basic control of a ship for your opponent. That is the way gap closers should work. Also, as stated this skill has a lot of issues outside of matches vs eldar.

As for lore.

A) no mechanic or balance issue should ever suffer because of lore. It should respect it and work within it, but saying that lore is more important than balance breaks is just wrong.

B) the lore of 40k is so massive and self contradicting you can argue for pretty much what you want and be right.

Space marines are faster than dark eldar.
White consuls have a primarch.
Deathwatch is an independent chapter.
There are 19 primarchs.
A tau can be possessed by a daemon.
Tau are immune to the warp.

These are all true according to lore

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Lothair
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Re: Please remove taunt from the game

Postby Lothair » 09 May 2016, 12:58

Carthoo wrote:@Lothair - so Gaunts ghosts (3 examples of fighting impossible odds coz "honor", "rage" or order - and thats not series about navy), Horuses Herecy (5 examples from what i remember), Ragnars series (6 examples) is not a lore? Go read some more, if you want to educate someone on his knowledge.


I've read all of Horus Heresy stuff, the Eldar Path series, the Night Lords trilogy and several other stuff. I haven't read GGs series tbh, but I still can't remember of a single case when an ORK "taunts" an Eldar vessel, or any for that matter, an makes it engage it show'em who's boss.

Levandor
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Re: Please remove taunt from the game

Postby Levandor » 09 May 2016, 13:12

angelshard wrote:No one is saying the skill shouldn't be replaced with something else. What we're arguing for is that it's a hamfisted mechanic that takes more out of the game that it gives. Mjw, EIC, stasis and MoS all gives you options to catch up without removing the basic control of a ship for your opponent. That is the way gap closers should work. Also, as stated this skill has a lot of issues outside of matches vs eldar.

As for lore.

A) no mechanic or balance issue should ever suffer because of lore. It should respect it and work within it, but saying that lore is more important than balance breaks is just wrong.

B) the lore of 40k is so massive and self contradicting you can argue for pretty much what you want and be right.

Space marines are faster than dark eldar.
White consuls have a primarch.
Deathwatch is an independent chapter.
There are 19 primarchs.
A tau can be possessed by a daemon.
Tau are immune to the warp.

These are all true according to lore



One chapter has Twin primarchs, no problem there, beside, its 21 Primarchs, 2 chapters have been eradicated from all books,
and both primarchs and their fate´s are unknown.

All chapters are indenpendent, thats the whole idea, deatwatch on the other hand, is under control of the inquisition, and its not as much a chapter, as a group formed by members of the chapters.

White Consuls have as Primarch the same the Ultramarines do, which is what was meant in the book of Dan Abnett, from there it just turned into a "conspiracy theory" by lore nerds

Why would space marines not be faster than Dark Eldar? They are tailored for warfare and far beyond what humans are able to do, where is the problem?

Tau are not "immune to the warp" either, they are not pariah, tau have such weak souls, they dont really register in the warp, so nobody really cares about them, which does not make them "immune" in any way shape or form, a bolt of change to the head still kills them, demons can still posses them, they just lack any form of psychic abilitys or deep connection to the warp, as other races do have

duck_bird
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Re: Please remove taunt from the game

Postby duck_bird » 09 May 2016, 13:32

Couldn't agree more. This skill has got to go.
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Carthoo
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Re: Please remove taunt from the game

Postby Carthoo » 09 May 2016, 13:51

Lothair wrote:
Carthoo wrote:@Lothair - so Gaunts ghosts (3 examples of fighting impossible odds coz "honor", "rage" or order - and thats not series about navy), Horuses Herecy (5 examples from what i remember), Ragnars series (6 examples) is not a lore? Go read some more, if you want to educate someone on his knowledge.


I've read all of Horus Heresy stuff, the Eldar Path series, the Night Lords trilogy and several other stuff. I haven't read GGs series tbh, but I still can't remember of a single case when an ORK "taunts" an Eldar vessel, or any for that matter, an makes it engage it show'em who's boss.


Right. First - what someone said above your post (we are all right according to lore), second - its a game. Eldars are totally different from chaos, imps, orks. So while there are good cases for taunting each other between these three, eldars should be untauntable...and we get a broken game. Sometimes its needed to something not logical/ lore-wise.

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Ashardalon
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Re: Please remove taunt from the game

Postby Ashardalon » 09 May 2016, 14:00

Gaunts ghosts are such bad books , its not w40k it ww2 in space , an inquisitor is called in since they suspect someone of being a psyker, a inquisitor ... just call him in no problem ...sure, you know how he investigates it, by asking ... nicely, no torture no interrogations , no sanctionite mindraping, no sanctionite scanning the rest of the regiment because there are THREE psykers hiding in that regiment
the entire books take on IG lore is so bad its even worse than the lore around genestealers in the inquisition wars or the representation of necrons in let the galaxy burn and the lore around those wasnt even established when they were written
he is a horrible writer, the only w40k books that have ever bored me, no depth, just honorable men being good guys, for f sake they even make a big deal out of friendly fire!
as IG you expect friendly fire always, hell they even thank their mutantpsyker abomination of a friend for drawing the attention of the entire warp upon them while doing nothing beneficial... great! definitely not heresy, they even get reintegrated even given back command after being compromised by being on a corrupted planet for far far far to long ... no, that would not happen that should not happen , they should have come of the transport and be greeted with a firing squad and than someone with a flamer should have come over and burned away the corrupting stains they're tainted blood was leaving on the emperors most holy landing bay
THAT is w40k not sure you have minor mutations and we have reason to believe you are hearing voices, lets give you undisputed command back as a commissar( a corrupt commissar that cant go wrong right?) and cornel even though that is kinda impossible because commissars are political officers and therefore outside of the chain of command like Cain he could have had the authority over his men without a problem his rank allows for some flexibility but taking on another rank not only makes no sense, would not be allowed by the administratum, and it would not be a promotion but a demotion, a commissar has the rank to tell a lord commander wat to do sooo cornel, quite the downgrade, but hell the coward deserves it the heretic ran away instead of defending their home world

prendeho
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Re: Please remove taunt from the game

Postby prendeho » 09 May 2016, 15:25

Glad that this thread had such a response. To dismiss concerns that I come from a biased Eldar perspective, here are pictures of my IN fleet.

I play all races, with IN being my favorite (have 2 admirals) - so no, I am not trying to get taunt nerfed to make my Eldar/Chaos ez to play, I want taunt nerfed because taking away control of your ship is a stupid, frustrating mechanic.

As you can see I do have it on my IN on 2 of my ships, because its so powerful.

You do not need taunt to catch eldar/chaos, you can do that with MWJ, IEC, upgraded booster gauge, hiding in a gas cloud to ambush, etc. I have done it before, its not impossible...and this is from a IN perspective. Taunt is used to seal the deal, because once you catch up, and taunt, its GG that ship. You no way of controlling that

For concerns about having to set your fleet up to beat Eldar-I have ships in my fleets speced out to fight certain races. The nova cannons are always taken vs Eldar (hence void shield overcharge and the upgraded shields because pulsars)

Vs. orkz I take 1 dictator and 4 LC's

Vs chaos I take overlords/lc's

Vs IN I can do whatever I feel like

If you are not adjusting your fleet to fight your enemy, you need to rethink your strategy. A retribution vs orkz is too slow to kite, and will get rammed/torped to death, for example.
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MysticForce
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Re: Please remove taunt from the game

Postby MysticForce » 09 May 2016, 15:29

I'm fine with removing Taunt from the game, but only if it's replaced with something worthwhile. While I agree that having no control over one's ship is annoying, but removing a meta-defining ability without compensation is foolishness. Even with Taunt in game, a perfectly played Eldar or kiting Chaos fleet can stay out of range forever, or at least for long enough to inflict critical damage so that even when they do get cornered, the game had already been won.

Want something removed? Come up with a suggestion for a replacement that fits the meta. Because if you don't, and the Devs actually do remove Taunt, they'll probably replace it with something that you'd hate even more: we already have miracle bombs, how about miracle minefields at 12k range that scatters limpet mines everywhere >.>

EDIT: After ship gets leveled and the right favor selected, Taunt isn't as useful as a range closer anymore. We are still talking 10-15 hours for new players to get to that point, during which Taunt is the most effective of the very few tools they have to catch a kiting enemy.
Last edited by MysticForce on 09 May 2016, 16:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Bludfist
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Re: Please remove taunt from the game

Postby Bludfist » 09 May 2016, 15:32

At the very least taunt should not be 7/15/22 s of loss of control


taunt should atleast have some risk to it when you use it, like taunted ships should get a dmg/speed boost
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
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McMichi
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Re: Please remove taunt from the game

Postby McMichi » 09 May 2016, 16:40

Without Taunt Orks have really hard to catch good eldar/chaos kitters even with red button, mwj and tractor, so without it they will need something to have a chance.


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