Eldars from a eldar point of view : close range option

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Stepan
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Eldars from a eldar point of view : close range option

Postby Stepan » 07 May 2016, 15:42

Hi all,

Playing and talking with my opponents, everyone agree that changes must me made to Eldars. Nonetheless we, fellow former citizens of our fallen empire, most of the time receive comments such as "nerf Eldars", "Cowards" or "Eldars are Op" to say only the most polite ones.

The rage seems to be directed to a type of Eldar Playstyle whose summary would be :

- Get range upgraded pulsar
- Fire from 9K or even 12K
- Use 180° turn
- Rince, repeat
- The enemy never see you

Some counters exist, the most basic one being spreading you fleet to occupy space and denying the Eldar invisibility.

This path is quite boring both for the Eldar and the younger races. I have been trying a different playstyle :

- Get the front armor upgrade
- Go straight to enemy fleet
- Fire pulsar
- Once you are about to ram into the enemy vessel, use micro-jump to jump behind the enemy, use boost to escape.
- Turn around and repeat

It's quite fun although not really rewarding : because of Micro Jump cooldown you can only do it once every two minutes. I don't know if it possible, but I would really enjoy to see this type of strategy being viable.

- Make pulsar efficiency decrease with distance 100% at 3K, 75% at 6K, 50% at 9K, 25% at 12K.
- Add a skill or a favour giving another micro jump. This micro jump would only work in the direction you are heading. If possible it should be usable only to close range from the enemy to avoid endless running. Basically it allows you to jump over the ship you are targeting or micro jump in the middle of the enemy fleet.

Some skills should be nerfed too to make it playable. Slaanesh for instance should disable offensive abilities not movement ones like boost or micro jump. Right now as soon as I see a Slaanesh fleet, I don't even try to engage at close range : since I can't use micro jump, it only leads me to ram the enemy fleet.

Taunt is OK since you can Micro Jump it or use the Eldar Favour reducing enemy sight.

The sight of a Eldar ship playing chicken run with a Ork Battleship before jumping right behind him and dancing around the whole fleet is a great one.

What do you think about it ? And fellow Eldars if you have tried close ranged engagement what's your feeling about it ?

Thanks for you feedbacks,

EDIT : An idea I just got : What about a bomb you could only place at your current location. Go through the middle of enemy fleet, drop bomb, escape.

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Sagranda
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Re: Eldars from a eldar point of view : close range option

Postby Sagranda » 07 May 2016, 16:34

Stepan wrote:- Make pulsar efficiency decrease with distance 100% at 3K, 75% at 6K, 50% at 9K, 25% at 12K.


Who in his right mind would design a weapon that only reaches full capacity at a range where you never want to be with ships that blow up instantly against a competent enemy?

What do you think about it ? And fellow Eldars if you have tried close ranged engagement what's your feeling about it ?


I have tried and played against it and I was thankful for every Eldar who tried to do it. Easy win, especially after the last MWJ changes. Just keep an Escort or a different ship behind and whoops, denied.

Orkz have it easy against such Eldar because of Trakktor Kannonz, while IN and Chaos can spread out a bit and use HET to get the Eldar ship not only into boarding range, but also the own ships into a position from where their weapons can shoot at the whole Eldar vessel and not just the prow. Include Overcharged Void-Shields and the enemy will get way more out of it than you.

The tactic also makes your movements very predictable and therefor it is rather easy to stop it through Bombs.
I play Orkz to collect all those salty Imperial tears
#FeelsWaaaghBoss

Gorthunk
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Re: Eldars from a eldar point of view : close range option

Postby Gorthunk » 07 May 2016, 16:37

Sagranda wrote:Who in his right mind would design a weapon that only reaches full capacity at a range where you never want to be with ships that blow up instantly against a competent enemy?


That's how lasers actually work.

Auzor
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Re: Eldars from a eldar point of view : close range option

Postby Auzor » 07 May 2016, 16:43

Stepan wrote:Hi all,

Playing and talking with my opponents, everyone agree that changes must me made to Eldars. Nonetheless we, fellow former citizens of our fallen empire, most of the time receive comments such as "nerf Eldars", "Cowards" or "Eldars are Op" to say only the most polite ones.

The rage seems to be directed to a type of Eldar Playstyle whose summary would be :

- Get range upgraded pulsar
- Fire from 9K or even 12K
- Use 180° turn
- Rince, repeat
- The enemy never see you

Some counters exist, the most basic one being spreading you fleet to occupy space and denying the Eldar invisibility.

This path is quite boring both for the Eldar and the younger races. I have been trying a different playstyle :

- Get the front armor upgrade
- Go straight to enemy fleet
- Fire pulsar
- Once you are about to ram into the enemy vessel, use micro-jump to jump behind the enemy, use boost to escape.
- Turn around and repeat

It's quite fun although not really rewarding : because of Micro Jump cooldown you can only do it once every two minutes. I don't know if it possible, but I would really enjoy to see this type of strategy being viable.

- Make pulsar efficiency decrease with distance 100% at 3K, 75% at 6K, 50% at 9K, 25% at 12K.
- Add a skill or a favour giving another micro jump. This micro jump would only work in the direction you are heading. If possible it should be usable only to close range from the enemy to avoid endless running. Basically it allows you to jump over the ship you are targeting or micro jump in the middle of the enemy fleet.

Some skills should be nerfed too to make it playable. Slaanesh for instance should disable offensive abilities not movement ones like boost or micro jump. Right now as soon as I see a Slaanesh fleet, I don't even try to engage at close range : since I can't use micro jump, it only leads me to ram the enemy fleet.

Taunt is OK since you can Micro Jump it or use the Eldar Favour reducing enemy sight.

The sight of a Eldar ship playing chicken run with a Ork Battleship before jumping right behind him and dancing around the whole fleet is a great one.

What do you think about it ? And fellow Eldars if you have tried close ranged engagement what's your feeling about it ?

Thanks for you feedbacks,

EDIT : An idea I just got : What about a bomb you could only place at your current location. Go through the middle of enemy fleet, drop bomb, escape.


The entire game could use a pretty big redesign; including the murder of most skills/abilities,
and a rework of the pulsars.
pulsars at 50% efficiency at 9k range: there are these things, macro cannons.
In general, yes, eldar should be more "close in, hit & run" playstyle. But in the current ability-spam game, that is simply not viable.

Stepan
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Re: Eldars from a eldar point of view : close range option

Postby Stepan » 07 May 2016, 18:06

I have tried and played against it and I was thankful for every Eldar who tried to do it. Easy win, especially after the last MWJ changes. Just keep an Escort or a different ship behind and whoops, denied.


I never said it was viable as for now, my Voidstaltker's rate of death is proof enough.

This topic is about close range Eldar fighting ability and the possibility of it : what changes would allow Eldars players to play Hit and Run tactics ?

Right now what is missing is an ability to go close and escape. And a reward to do so.

MWJ is not enough, hence my proposition to add another teleport ability which could only be used in this configuration : to evade the ship in front of you. An ability with a short cooldown.

Bombs are not a problem since usually you can outrun or evade them most of the time. I agree about this move being very predicable right now : maybe we could add also a lateral move ? You are charging the enemy fleet and at the last moment you shift on the right or left, changing target.

About the nerf I was proposing to pulsars, maybe make something like :

3K 125 or 150% 6K 100% 9K 75%

6K would be then the normal range and 3K would be the high risk high reward range.

People are screaming to nerf Eldars but right now all our abilities except the front armor one are made for a long range distance. Nerfing Eldars won't change the fact that right now they can only survive hidden and far away from their enemies.

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Solitaire_7
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Re: Eldars from a eldar point of view : close range option

Postby Solitaire_7 » 07 May 2016, 18:48

Stepan wrote:Hi all,

Playing and talking with my opponents, everyone agree that changes must me made to Eldars. Nonetheless we, fellow former citizens of our fallen empire, most of the time receive comments such as "nerf Eldars", "Cowards" or "Eldars are Op" to say only the most polite ones.

The rage seems to be directed to a type of Eldar Playstyle whose summary would be :

- Get range upgraded pulsar
- Fire from 9K or even 12K
- Use 180° turn
- Rince, repeat
- The enemy never see you

Some counters exist, the most basic one being spreading you fleet to occupy space and denying the Eldar invisibility.

This path is quite boring both for the Eldar and the younger races. I have been trying a different playstyle :

- Get the front armor upgrade
- Go straight to enemy fleet
- Fire pulsar
- Once you are about to ram into the enemy vessel, use micro-jump to jump behind the enemy, use boost to escape.
- Turn around and repeat

It's quite fun although not really rewarding : because of Micro Jump cooldown you can only do it once every two minutes. I don't know if it possible, but I would really enjoy to see this type of strategy being viable.

- Make pulsar efficiency decrease with distance 100% at 3K, 75% at 6K, 50% at 9K, 25% at 12K.
- Add a skill or a favour giving another micro jump. This micro jump would only work in the direction you are heading. If possible it should be usable only to close range from the enemy to avoid endless running. Basically it allows you to jump over the ship you are targeting or micro jump in the middle of the enemy fleet.

Some skills should be nerfed too to make it playable. Slaanesh for instance should disable offensive abilities not movement ones like boost or micro jump. Right now as soon as I see a Slaanesh fleet, I don't even try to engage at close range : since I can't use micro jump, it only leads me to ram the enemy fleet.

Taunt is OK since you can Micro Jump it or use the Eldar Favour reducing enemy sight.

The sight of a Eldar ship playing chicken run with a Ork Battleship before jumping right behind him and dancing around the whole fleet is a great one.

What do you think about it ? And fellow Eldars if you have tried close ranged engagement what's your feeling about it ?

Thanks for you feedbacks,

EDIT : An idea I just got : What about a bomb you could only place at your current location. Go through the middle of enemy fleet, drop bomb, escape.


Your switching one trick for another which will soon grow old. We could do with more options for engagement and play style. Since we only have one choice of battleship(it has pulsars). One choice of battlecruiser(it has pulsars too) and one choice of cruiser(starcannons). Two types off light cruiser aurora and solaris which are pulsar and carrier respectively making our choices and playstyle options very very limited indeed.

Compare this to chaos or I.N and well you get the idea they have a lot more cruiser types to choose from.

Anonymous player A says "OMG not another Pulsar Noob". Eldar player replys yup they make up more than half of my fleet choices m8.

In low level match play you could mix up the Solaris with some of the escort ships but yeh essentially we are limited in how we go about hit n run surprise attacks in our incredibly fragile ships. I like the idea of kustom points on ork kroozers and the diversity offered by I.N and Chaos cruiser lines.

Although they only get two choices of battlecruiser, thats twice the choice Eldar get and the same goes for battleships.

We do have the best escort ships in the game but take your eye of them for a few seconds and they get waisted.

Nerfing the pulsar as it stands atm nerfs most of the Eldar fleets ships ! Leaving them with only one cruiser class and two escort classes which don't get affected. Viability in the multiplayer end game is compromised.

What is the answer to nerfing Pulsars I can only speculate. Ideas I've seen voiced on the forums.

Buffing the star cannons so they can broadside.
Introducing another cruiser class to compliment the shadow. (maybe a carrier ?)
Introducing another battlecruiser class to compliment the eclipse.
Introducing another Battleship choice
Making Holofields ever so marginally better.
Giving them slightly better armor on the prow as all their attacks come from that direction and they will need to risk closer engagements.
Doing something with the torpedoes seekers/fast burn/phased. Vortex mwahahahaha
Making the ships ever so slightly faster and more agile on the turn hmmmmm.
The topic starters ideas above.

Well there are more ideas out there but I got a wife n kids to feed so gotta go..............
"Let your enemies fear, for a Harlequin of the Laughing God dances at your side."

Black Library Approved : viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Crown Prince Solitaire
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Beernchips
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Re: Eldars from a eldar point of view : close range option

Postby Beernchips » 07 May 2016, 19:01

It is not a matter of choice it is just that today Eldars are very fragile when people can shoot macro/nova/bombers/boarding to them AND starcannons are forcing Eldar to stay in risky range.
So Eldars can choose between a high risk low reward setup (starcannons) or a low risk high reward setup (pulsars). You can add any BC or BS with a lot of starcannons you won t take them because they will be less efficient than the pulsars choices.
Full bomber setup will have the same limits as Chaos mass carriers.
To balance the things, you need to
- Increase the risks when using pulsars which will be the case if you can t upgrade the range
- But you also need to increase the reward when using starcannons to make Starcannons a viable other choice vs pulsars
- and/or give Eldars a way to not explode when they stay at 6k range vs macro to use starcannons (either a way to manoeuvre easier into dead angles of enemies and still be able to use starcannons or increased arcs of fire...)
Repent, for tomorrow you die

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Facejack
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Re: Eldars from a eldar point of view : close range option

Postby Facejack » 07 May 2016, 22:08

Vaul's maneuver could be reworked so that instead of turning 180 to run, it could jump"over" or "under" an enemy allowing you to dash through without collision. Couple this with some point blank damage incentive to close with the enemy (or a nerf to long range damage) and a bit more durability.

Eldar are my favorite playstyle followed closely by orks. The other races need improved counters to Eldar kiting and invisibility (chaos most of all).

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Facejack
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Re: Eldars from a eldar point of view : close range option

Postby Facejack » 08 May 2016, 06:43

Pulsars are not fun to play as or against. I mean, if you like crushing everyone no matter what they do without taking any appreciable damage, then pulsars are fun, for awhile, until you get bored to death (I have a lvl 10 Voidstalker too, yawn).

Simply reducing range wont make the Eldar fun to play as or against.

Holofields need a total reworking because Eldar essentially negate lances, and that's not fun.

Being able to remain stealthed almost indefinitely and outmaneuver any other fleet even with crippled engines, isn't fun.

We want to see strategic play, and counter play. The abilities need to work in such a way that when someone uses a cooldown you can take advantage. Every MOBA and MMO has this mechanic and it works beautifully. For example: the eldar dash needs to be on a longer cooldown, with a 14 second CD, it is far too effective at dodging rams, avoiding torps, avoiding abilities, and generally running away in objective games.

The game plays you, rather than you playing the game. The player doesn't make meaningful choices in terms of builds and abilities because each faction has a very obvious best build. It's not variety when one is stupid good and one is wretchedly bad. Would you like to win all day against anyone and take pulsars, or lose no matter who you face with star cannons? bad. Ork compulsory squig upgrade: bad. You can't not take it.

There is so much potential here. Graphically, narratively, mechanically its sound. Balance is off, but that can be fixed. The problem I am pointing out is that the design philosophy of each race is not reflected in the current abilities and weapons. With tweaks, this could be fixed. The lead devs need to be asking their team: "how does the next set of changes reward players for balanced, tactical, thematic, asymmetrical gameplay?" Currently Eldar promotes and rewards gameplay that creates a bad experience. One that is very binary (win without a scratch because they never even revealed you or explode in 2 seconds if you get chain taunt and tracktored). Decide what each race should do that is balanced and fun and tweak towards that goal. How did pulsars pass inspection?

Stepan
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Re: Eldars from a eldar point of view : close range option

Postby Stepan » 08 May 2016, 11:45

If I sum up :

Close and range combat :

- Close combat : ships that blow up instantly against a competent enemy,
- Long range combat : win all day against anyone and take pulsars, get bored.

Option : make long range less low risk high reward and make close range less high risk no reward. The point is to have strategic play and counter play, each option having its risks and its rewards.

- point blank damage incentive to close with the enemy
- nerf to long range damage

The game plays you, rather than you playing the game :

- we only have one viable strategy, pulsars. It's not a choice it's compulsory.
- The choice of ships is limited and they all have pulsars, except the Shadow which is not viable.

Option : diversify Eldar's possible strategies and weapons, reflect it in more fleet variety : more ships for more different viable options.

Ability Spam :

- Eldar should be more "close in, hit & run" playstyle. But in the current ability-spam game, that is simply not viable.

Option : fight evil with evil, create more abilities for Eldars to play close range since we can't rework taunt, traktor, slaanesh etc etc. Example : jump"over" or "under" an enemy allowing you to dash through without collision.

By the way, I just noticed another player had the same idea :

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3078

star cannons :

- You need to stay at 6K so your ship is a sitting duck,
- Low damage compared to pulsars,
- No reason to use them

Option : give them broadside. Any other idea ?

Option : Remove possibility to crit from pulsars so enemy fleet don't end up disabled right away without seeing the Eldar fleet. Give a massive boost to Starcannons' crit rate.

Therefore the damage dealer would remain the pulsar but to get crits on enemy fleet you would have to get close, really close. But if you succeed to do so, you have a good chance to cripple them.


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