Codex Sages : Gameplay questions

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Ire
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Re: Codex Sages : Gameplay questions

Postby Ire » 28 May 2016, 18:47

Drakki wrote:
Shaftoe wrote:Why lances on imperial ships suck badly enough, so Lunar, Gothic and Firestorm are half or totally useless ships, when they supposed to be heavy (but slow) hitters?

The question should be "Why Imperial cruisers don't have their one lance turret like Overlord or Mars". (So a ghotic would have 4x12 broadside[4] and 1x12[1]. And the anwser to that would be, balance purposes.

As the game has put tabletop ship designs into real time it became very apparent that the Imperial Navy designs are far superior than the old Chaos vessels so the IN doesn't have their full armament to balance it out.

Btw this is not a topic for balancing this is a topic of gameplay mechanics, take it elsewhere please.

With regards, Commissar Drakki.



Well, the imperial cruisers NEVER had dorsal turrets. That's what kinda made battlecruisers battlecruisers.

While Lance's do sometimes feel weak, throwing out 1/3rd the dps of a macro weapon, realize that it's APPLIED damage isn't bad. With the guaranteed hit and AP at any range, a Lance battery has a good chance of applying its 2dps.

A comparable macro battery, with 6 dps, has difficulties applying anywhere close to that outside of 3k AP ranges. Assume 50% hits and 50% armor and your back down to comparable dps. The Lance's actually easily overtake macro dps at longer ranges (and heavier armor).

I feel the real issue is macros having access to AP. That makes them feel like vastly more powerful weapons than they really should be. Imperial ships loosing access to the Lance crit upgrade hurt this even further.

Another issue is the lack of an imperial lance-sniper (12-15k ranges) as the Gothic can only tag out to 9k, and other ships suffer from split weapon syndrome and players are unlikely to invest in upgrades for a secondary weapon system.

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Re: Codex Sages : Gameplay questions

Postby Ire » 28 May 2016, 19:12

Drakki wrote: the Imperial Cruiser's HAD strength 1 dorsal lance turrets. In more than one BFG book at that :)


What class of ship. Cite me one.

The post was more directed at shaftoe than you (as an FYI), but none of the cruisers implemented in bfg:a had any dorsal Lance's. I'm unaware of the top of my head of any otherwise existing CC with such an armament.

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Re: Codex Sages : Gameplay questions

Postby Engelious » 30 May 2016, 08:33

Q: Regarding buff's and Enhancements on ship and weapons

I find that its REALLY hard for a newb in this game, to really get a clear picture of my ships capabilities after skills.
The "buff' skills chosen on a ship does not change the original number on the ship.

Ie.:
upgraded my mrk2 to have +3 k range on macrogunz.... but wen i look at the ship the gun tooltip still says 6k range.
wich makes it alot harder to figure out excatly what is what. Same goes with shield upgrades.

!SUGGESTION!

WE OF THE EMPIRE, would like to ask u hetric souls to take all them Answers and post them in a Thread for them selves.
this way... i dont have to go threw 20 pages of forum, to figure out whats allready been asked :-)

Regards Admiral of the Empire,

ps. SOON COMMING TO WRECK HETRICS AND TRAITORS A PLACE NEAR YOU :D

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Sio'are
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Re: Codex Sages : Gameplay questions

Postby Sio'are » 30 May 2016, 10:37

Kor'o Elys'eir Sio'Are Kaith Kir'qath, Ready to answer your questions.

IMPERIUM LANCES WEAPONS

Why lances on imperial ships suck badly enough, so Lunar, Gothic and Firestorm are half or totally useless ships, when they supposed to be heavy (but slow) hitters?


This includes all the discussion that ensued.

First of all, gentlemen, It is only in the Warhammer 40k universe that "there is only war". There is no need to be offended or to escalate any conflict, or I swear, your God Emperor, Gork and Mork, Ruinous Powers or Dead Gods of the Eldar Pantheon be witness, The Greater Good will strike the most turbulent elements down. Thank you.

(As per the "right" of this question to be here, it is indeed a balancing question, but it doesn't make it off-place here. I answer to anyone as long as it is not technical or pure whinning.)

So, as for the Imperium Lances, you are mistaken :
I can assure you that comparing the same Weaponry from IN and Chaos, IN has Lances just as good as chaos, but to fit a different purpose. They just have less range, less attacks and slower Rate of Fire most of the time, since Chaos Territory is Long Range weaponry. IN have less ships fitted with Lances too.

Do not get me wrong, Chaos dish out more damages with lances due to distance, but each attack taken individually, IN is just as good. Let's take the basic Lance Battery :

IN : 6.000 range; 2 Attacks; 12 seconds reload; 12 Damages.
Chaos : 12.000 range; 4 Attacks; 8 seconds reload; 4 Damages.

So yeah, a single attack, with their firing rate, would end up with :

IN : 24 damages in 24 seconds
Chaos : 12 damages in 24 seconds.

Time their number of attacks :

24 x 2 = 48 for IN
12 x 4 = 48 for Chaos.

See ? Same damage. You'll just use them differently. Chaos will fire from afar, potentially making more damage. IN will brawl with it to cause damages through thick hull.

LANCES CRITICAL CHANCES

I have a question about weapon crit chances. We had a discussion in the Chaos Forum about the Overload Generator upgrade and lance crit chances and developed a formula to forecast crit rates over a given time (a special order duration). While this formula seemed to work for macro weapons, it failed when it came to lances, the values were much too high. According to the formula, macros and lances should have similar crit rates, because lances always hit, but have lower rate of fire (Chaos) or lower crit chance (Imperium). From our battlefield experience and isolated test runs we know that macros seem to crit much more often than lances. Is this impression deceiving or is there a difference in the critical hit calculation for macro weapons and lances?


Looks like someone is playing the Farseer ! I'll have to see this formula. PM me if you want.

No difference between Lances and Macro-weapons calculations, but Lances have advantages over Macro-Weaponry : Namely, range, accuracy and Armour-piercing. Of course, at close range, and even more with the Piercing rounds, Macro-weapons can cause critical damages more efficiently, due to the number of projectiles.

Be aware if you tested your calculations against Eldars, They have a Trait that make them weaker against weapon-sourced critical damages.

UPGRADES FEEDBACK

Q: Regarding buff's and Enhancements on ship and weapons

I find that its REALLY hard for a newb in this game, to really get a clear picture of my ships capabilities after skills.
The "buff' skills chosen on a ship does not change the original number on the ship.

Ie.:
upgraded my mrk2 to have +3 k range on macrogunz.... but wen i look at the ship the gun tooltip still says 6k range.
wich makes it alot harder to figure out excatly what is what. Same goes with shield upgrades.


I'll assume you're talking about upgrades here and not skills. It is strange. Our Tooltips and stats are supposed to modify to fit the upgrade set on it.are you sure your game is up to date and all ? If yes, you can still send me a screenshot of the problem via MP.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

!SUGGESTION!

WE OF THE EMPIRE, would like to ask u hetric souls to take all them Answers and post them in a Thread for them selves.
this way... i dont have to go threw 20 pages of forum, to figure out whats allready been asked :-)

Regards Admiral of the Empire,

ps. SOON COMMING TO WRECK HETRICS AND TRAITORS A PLACE NEAR YOU :D


It is already in preparation, but trust me, rewritting all advices given here is a really long and difficult task (There is approximately around 30 pages of a word document worth of advices and clarification. I have to sort them out, suppress the fluff, and rewrite them with a structure... Quite long.)

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Re: Codex Sages : Gameplay questions

Postby RedDevilCG » 30 May 2016, 16:53

Hello great Sage. Tau spies have managed to steal the plans for Chaos battleships, however the Earth caste projections of speed are wrong! Can you explain why the engine power of the Chaos Retribution Battleship is lower than its schematics show?

(In tabletop the Retribution has the same speed as most Chaos cruisers yet in game here it's much slower. Why is this? If it's a balance issue, couldn't points just be adjusted to keep this unique flavour of Chaos?)

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Codex Sages : Gameplay questions

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 30 May 2016, 22:52

Greetings, young alien.

My pursuit for knowledge has brought me here to this great thread, Tzeentch approves of your understanding of the game although your part in his plan is unknown to me.

Now I'd like to clarify something, namely what is the warp cancelling mechanics? At first I thought warp jump is cancelled when successful assault strike on the generator is performed. Or there appears an additional critical spot when warping out, that can be attacked.

However, I had one situation when I waited out the last enemy ship until it starts warping out, and threw battleship boarding action and two lightnings (one triple) at him. They succeeded... partially. I did destroy some weapons, a deck and a generator, however the warp jump did not get cancelled and mfk escaped. I'm more than certain that generator was intact before my cancelling attempt, so I was pretty confused.

Thank you in advance.
The sentence below is true
Spoiler : :
The sentence above is false

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Sio'are
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Re: Codex Sages : Gameplay questions

Postby Sio'are » 31 May 2016, 14:11

Kor'o Elys'eir Sio'Are Kaith Kir'qath. You know the drill, Soldiers.

DESOLATOR SPEED

Hello great Sage. Tau spies have managed to steal the plans for Chaos battleships, however the Earth caste projections of speed are wrong! Can you explain why the engine power of the Chaos Retribution Battleship is lower than its schematics show?

(In tabletop the Retribution has the same speed as most Chaos cruisers yet in game here it's much slower. Why is this? If it's a balance issue, couldn't points just be adjusted to keep this unique flavour of Chaos?)


I am sorry, RedDevilCG, but the Retribution is a Battleship from the Imperial Navy Fleet. You must talk about the Desolator. It is a Game Design decision indeed both in terms of balance and of feelings. We wanted Battleships to feel powerful, like flying fortresses. In addition, both Chaos Battleships are quite fast for Battleships, only on par with the Imperial Navy Retribution Battleship, and only outspeeded by the Void Stalker.

WARP CANCELATION MECHANICS

Greetings, young alien.

My pursuit for knowledge has brought me here to this great thread, Tzeentch approves of your understanding of the game although your part in his plan is unknown to me.

Now I'd like to clarify something, namely what is the warp cancelling mechanics? At first I thought warp jump is cancelled when successful assault strike on the generator is performed. Or there appears an additional critical spot when warping out, that can be attacked.

However, I had one situation when I waited out the last enemy ship until it starts warping out, and threw battleship boarding action and two lightnings (one triple) at him. They succeeded... partially. I did destroy some weapons, a deck and a generator, however the warp jump did not get cancelled and mfk escaped. I'm more than certain that generator was intact before my cancelling attempt, so I was pretty confused.

Thank you in advance.


Greetings, Sorcerer. Your God of knowledge seems rather picky on which to divulgate to its followers. Serve a Greater Cause, a Greater Good. As a token of faith, I will share what your "God" hides from you.

When a ship activates a Warp Jump, it is possible to cancel said Warp Jump by performing a successful Assault Action on it. The Assault Action, RATHER than destroying a subsystem or cause a lighter critical damage, will cancel the Warp Jump and reset its cooldown at 30 seconds.

But an insubordinated ship's Warp Jump cannot be canceled. Ask your god why. Maybe the coward's luck, or the cornered soldiers would die before letting you access to the Warp Drive. Whatever the reasons, the Assault Actions dealt to a fleeing insubordinated ship will destroy the subsystems as they are supposed to. While you cannot cancel their jump, it will help you ensure victory and you can dish out damages to try to Heavily damage the ship even more.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wouldn't like to be more of a torn in your side than I already am, but what did the Tech priests say, everything is right with the bombers and I had purely bad luck? ;_;


Nothing was found so far. It seems that the Emperor wasn't with you at all that day, after all !

Can't wait for this weeks patch. I have a question Tau, how does on of your race express his feelings in an equivalent of a human soldier showing a particular finger of his hand to his superior officer behind said officers back? I mean, thou Tau fingers issue and all, <hon hon hon>. (That's why I haz dem OP servo sculls watching my back :mrgreen: )


We do not. We respect our superiors, as we all work for a common, greater goal.

I will use this spot here to not spam everywhere for little something, my Dearest Flighty Xeno Sio"are, I know you cannot reveal such things, but could you tell us the approximate point cost of a battle barge? I am not asking for specifics, just 300+ ? 250+?. An approximate launch day would be glorious :D


No can do. I won't divulgate such secrets, and it is not the topic of this thread. As such, I'll remind you to keep this thread as much clean as possible and avoid such questions. I am fine with a little off-topic, this isn't a penal world after all, but questions asking for leaks is a no-go place. Thank you.

Thank you for your questions,
Kor'o Elys'eir Sio'Are Kaith Kir'qath, End of Transmission.

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Bludfist
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Re: Codex Sages : Gameplay questions

Postby Bludfist » 31 May 2016, 15:27

Sio'are wrote:Kor'o Elys'eir Sio'Are Kaith Kir'qath. You know the drill, Soldiers.


I am sorry, RedDevilCG, but the Retribution is a Battleship from the Imperial Navy Fleet. You must talk about the Desolator. It is a Game Design decision indeed both in terms of balance and of feelings. We wanted Battleships to feel powerful, like flying fortresses. In addition, both Chaos Battleships are quite fast for Battleships, only on par with the Imperial Navy Retribution Battleship, and only outspeeded by the Void Stalker.



Thank you for your questions,
Kor'o Elys'eir Sio'Are Kaith Kir'qath, End of Transmission.



If i may ask sir is the net dps output of the desolater similar to that of the archaon?

It is the common criticism i see of the ship, that it is nothing more that just a more expensive archaon
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
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Sio'are
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Re: Codex Sages : Gameplay questions

Postby Sio'are » 31 May 2016, 16:21

If i may ask sir is the net dps output of the desolater similar to that of the archaon?

It is the common criticism i see of the ship, that it is nothing more that just a more expensive archaon


Keep in mind that this is a topic to explain mechanics, not to explain balance.

I still did the maths. In terms of raw, optimum DPS, the Acheron is 13,6 damage per seconds, and the Desolator 23,6. The Desolator have 10 more damage per second. And while it is a bit slower, it also have 400 Hull points and 200 shield points more, and 3 CDS turrets. (Of course, this DPS is optimum, for both, which means everything hits.)

You could see the Desolator as an evolved Acheron if you want, but it surely isn't just a more expensive Acheron. Plus it has 8 torpedoes. It's the only Chaos Line ship to have some.

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Re: Codex Sages : Gameplay questions

Postby Beernchips » 31 May 2016, 16:51

CAn you expain your maths?
Desolator have
6 lance broadsides
each battery 2 guns 2 attacks 4 damages 8 RoF = 12 DPS total
2 missile pods
3 attacks 3 damages RoF 10 = 1.8 DPS total
so 13.8 DPS total + torpedoes

Acheron
2 turrets
2 attacks 4 damages RoF 8 = 2 DPS total
4 broadsides same as Deolator so 8 DPS total
1 missile pod so 0.9 DPS
1 macro turret
3 attacks 9 damages RoF 9 so 3 DPS
Total 13.9 DPS
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