Tactical Cogitator (WILL NOT BE A FEATURE) in Ranked. HURRAY.

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Lucifronsun
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Re: Tactical Cogitator (WILL NOT BE A FEATURE) in Ranked. HURRAY.

Postby Lucifronsun » 01 May 2016, 06:20

G13 wrote:"fast clicking" is such a gross oversimplification. 200 apm means nothing if those are not effective actions.


Did I anywhere state that spamming the mouse button was my definition of fast clicking? I don't remember saying that anywhere.

This game is not JUST about strategy, it is not a turn based game. Time is a factor, and hence the skills related to time are factors.


It's an RTS adaptation, no shit.

Skills such as being able to react to sudden situations quickly, quick critical thinking to put responses into place


That is what I would refer to as "skill".

and having the dexterity and effective control to be able to execute plans at the right time.


That, is what I refer to as being able to click fast. I don't refer to that as skill in a game about strategy, that's just a means to an end.

Whether you like it or not these skills are already in the game even with TC present. TC is a tool which can make up for certain weaknesses in time based skills a player has, which is totally fine.


Or, allows for tactics and strategies that would normally not be implementable by most people, increasing the depth of the game.

But the whole purpose of ranked play is to determine where on the skill spectrum a player lies, so masking a players weaknesses with this tool defeats the purpose of ranked play.


You don't seem to get it, so I will explain it very simply to you. You are running entirely off a personal definition of skill, that cites being able to "click fast" as being indicative of a more "skilled" player. You're under the impression that the tac cog is a crutch, as opposed to a stepping stool.

I disagree with that definition, since this is a strategy game, you know, a Real Time Strategy game. If you want skill to be defined as being dexterous, then go play quake, where aimbot like precision and quick reflexes define ones "skill". I will take the path of having a thinking mans game instead.

Imaginary friend
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Re: Tactical Cogitator (WILL NOT BE A FEATURE) in Ranked. HURRAY.

Postby Imaginary friend » 01 May 2016, 07:19

Two things bother me about this.

First.
T.C. is way more important to some factions and fleet builds and that means the amount viable builds for ranked will be limited. It is easier to set your fleet in ambush in forced realtime than it is to react to it.
The game balancing is done with T.C. in the game, this may cause ranked to be filled only with factions that have the initiative advantage and whom will become stronger without it in the game.

Second.
It will split the player base to those that like T.C. and to those who dont. When player numbers start dwindling it becomes harder for both to find games.

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angelshard
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Re: Tactical Cogitator (WILL NOT BE A FEATURE) in Ranked. HURRAY.

Postby angelshard » 01 May 2016, 08:34

Honestly I don't see a problem with TC in ranked.

If the person A who needs TC has a match against someone B who is just as good on every tactical and strategic level, but don't need TC to do the exact same things as A, then B will win, as every second out of TC (and let's be honest, the majority of a match isn't spent in TC) he will have the advantage.

This means the top of ranked won't be using TC while those in the mid to low can use it.

That said I do believe TC needs a change to limit the amount of consecutive time you can be in TC.

Also I'm impressed this thread got back on track after the toxic posts started, well done community.

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Re: Tactical Cogitator (WILL NOT BE A FEATURE) in Ranked. HURRAY.

Postby Adrmial Seraph » 01 May 2016, 10:52

BrianDavion wrote:except TC is part of the game, wouldn't a better way to judging someone's skill with the game to be to give them all the tools?


Not if said tools circumvent the base perameters of the game mode. Which tac cog certanily does in a ranked mode but mitigating actual skill level to artificially infalte it.

It's like having a pro basketball league where it's okay to juice. How do you guage who is better when your skill is being artificially inflated?

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BrianDavion
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Re: Tactical Cogitator (WILL NOT BE A FEATURE) in Ranked. HURRAY.

Postby BrianDavion » 01 May 2016, 10:57

Adrmial Seraph wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:except TC is part of the game, wouldn't a better way to judging someone's skill with the game to be to give them all the tools?


Not if said tools circumvent the base perameters of the game mode. Which tac cog certanily does in a ranked mode but mitigating actual skill level to artificially infalte it.

It's like having a pro basketball league where it's okay to juice. How do you guage who is better when your skill is being artificially inflated?



you keep comparing the use of tatical cogitators to outright cheating. I'm sorry you feel that way but it's part of the game. this is like complaining about the Queen being able to move in any direction in chess.

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Skanvak
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Re: Tactical Cogitator (WILL NOT BE A FEATURE) in Ranked. HURRAY.

Postby Skanvak » 01 May 2016, 12:02

The communauty is split. I suggest the dev to make 2 games : a full real time with no pause and a turn base game for people that want to think there move without APM to matter.

I think this is the point : there are people that think that APM matter in the challenges and other that don't want APM to matter in the challenge(I am on this side). The level of micro-management of this games (you cannot just order a ship to ram and expect it will calculate the correct impact road) make is either a APM fest or need for a very slow game. I would have prefer a turn base game or a game where you controle only one ship.

Trying to put 2 communauty into the same game is a mistake. I have stop playing warcraft because it is APM fest. This is not something I will train for. I want to enjoy a ship game in the WH40K universe and enjoy a thinking game.
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Deuzerre
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Re: Tactical Cogitator (WILL NOT BE A FEATURE) in Ranked. HURRAY.

Postby Deuzerre » 01 May 2016, 12:36

Skanvak wrote:Trying to put 2 communauty into the same game is a mistake. I have stop playing warcraft because it is APM fest. This is not something I will train for. I want to enjoy a ship game in the WH40K universe and enjoy a thinking game.

I don't agree with this statement, and your idea that they would make out of thin air a new turn based mode is just irrealistic.

The tac-cog is IMO an excellent idea that allows both populations to cohexist, the only issue is the LENGTH of that tac cog. Tac cog lasting for 10 seconds, possible to activate every 45 true game seconds would IMO be the best for tac cog. It is long enough to dodge the bombs and/or to plan an attack.
"Common sense isn't as common as the name would imply"

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Gobsmaka
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Re: Tactical Cogitator (WILL NOT BE A FEATURE) in Ranked. HURRAY.

Postby Gobsmaka » 01 May 2016, 13:44

Meh... Put ranking on both modes, be interesting to see if the same names end up on top.
"I'm here to kill the enemies of man, not to play politics"

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Skanvak
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Re: Tactical Cogitator (WILL NOT BE A FEATURE) in Ranked. HURRAY.

Postby Skanvak » 01 May 2016, 14:29

Gobsmaka wrote:Meh... Put ranking on both modes, be interesting to see if the same names end up on top.


That would indeed give some facts to the arguments.
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Skanvak Drakken
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G13
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Re: Tactical Cogitator (WILL NOT BE A FEATURE) in Ranked. HURRAY.

Postby G13 » 01 May 2016, 18:16

Lucifronsun wrote:
G13 wrote:"fast clicking" is such a gross oversimplification. 200 apm means nothing if those are not effective actions.


Did I anywhere state that spamming the mouse button was my definition of fast clicking? I don't remember saying that anywhere.

This game is not JUST about strategy, it is not a turn based game. Time is a factor, and hence the skills related to time are factors.


It's an RTS adaptation, no shit.

Skills such as being able to react to sudden situations quickly, quick critical thinking to put responses into place


That is what I would refer to as "skill".

and having the dexterity and effective control to be able to execute plans at the right time.


That, is what I refer to as being able to click fast. I don't refer to that as skill in a game about strategy, that's just a means to an end.

Whether you like it or not these skills are already in the game even with TC present. TC is a tool which can make up for certain weaknesses in time based skills a player has, which is totally fine.


Or, allows for tactics and strategies that would normally not be implementable by most people, increasing the depth of the game.

But the whole purpose of ranked play is to determine where on the skill spectrum a player lies, so masking a players weaknesses with this tool defeats the purpose of ranked play.


You don't seem to get it, so I will explain it very simply to you. You are running entirely off a personal definition of skill, that cites being able to "click fast" as being indicative of a more "skilled" player. You're under the impression that the tac cog is a crutch, as opposed to a stepping stool.

I disagree with that definition, since this is a strategy game, you know, a Real Time Strategy game. If you want skill to be defined as being dexterous, then go play quake, where aimbot like precision and quick reflexes define ones "skill". I will take the path of having a thinking mans game instead.



1) You may not define manual dexterity as skill, but unfortunately in this case you are simply wrong, http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... -dexterity

"someone's ​ability to use the ​hands to ​perform a ​difficult ​action ​skilfully and ​quickly so that it ​looks ​easy"

2) By design intent (the game is real time) a players performance in this game scales with manual dexterity, among other things. TC does not negate this fact, but merely allows those with lower skill to do things they normally wouldn't, as you said yourself.


3) The purpose of ranked play is to determine where on a ladder a player lies, according to all the skills they can use.


Or, allows for tactics and strategies that would normally not be implementable by most people, increasing the depth of the game.


I wanted to highlight this in particular, as it reinforces the point, that only those with the best overall mental and physical skills, will be able to think of, and implement, the best tactics most effectively, thus earning them their place at the top of the ladder. That is the whole purpose of ranked play!


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