IMPORTANT! Imperial Navy armor-piercing shells!

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IMPORTANT! Imperial Navy armor-piercing shells!

Postby Shaftoe » 04 January 2017, 21:36

Let we skip all lyrics and jump to the matter, which brought me here.

I never was a forum whimmer. I never said "my faction is sucks, help me to start winning in this game by doing A, B and C things". As Emperor's servant, I stoically endured each poor choice development team had made over the time of BFGA developmet. I adapted. I tried to oversee my tactics. And I had success. Then, I left BFGA for a time.

And now I back and what I'm seeing is uterrly disgusting. Somehow, the IN - the most "average" and "easy" of all factions became just a ghost of its former self. Mostly because of its strangely low damage, thanks to Tau newly acquired 75/45/45 armor (which was delivered as ONLY IN FEATURE!) and Space Marines insane armor and boarding capabilities. Look, these all good, but as for now the IN has no way to counter it effectively. When you meet an enemy with potent fleet - you're already dead, no matter how skilfull you are, BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT DEAL DAMAGE THROUGH ARMOR IN CLOSE RANGE!

So, I suggest we have IN armor-piercing ability counting EVERY armor value in 3000 range as 25 back! Otherwise, the IN will suffer further from any SM, Tau and Orkz buffs.

We need more damage, gentlemen. If we are to win this war, WE MUST DO damage in best way we can do it. As the Imperial Navy, WE SHALL DOMINATE in 3000 units RANGE WITH THE POWER OF OUR MIGHTY GUNS!

ALL GLORY TO THE EMPEROR!
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Re: IMPORTANT! Imperial Navy armor-piercing shells!

Postby Ashardalon » 04 January 2017, 22:55

Let we skip all lyrics and jump to the matter, which brought me here.

dont say this if your not going to do it

tau lose their front armor if they get a front crit, combined with their lower hp and wide profile for easy torp targeting makes them easily handelable by imps, especially with ramming spikes

marines get outnumbered, combined with their only real tanky ship being being a giant brick makes them easily torpable (and novas ignore armor) and they need to tank with their BB if they want to get results out of their C's, torp their BB to death and the C's are easily killable, nova their C's and its BB will barely deal damage

orks should be the 3k faction, you fight orks at 6k not 3, and they havnt been buffed in a long time
besides most ork players still feald zapp fleets meaning you will out dps them at 3 as the only ap capable weapons they have are gunz and with their low turning speed you can out turn them and shoot them in the flanks with ap giving them 25 armor

problems solved
you havnt played in a long time, its normal to get worse, dont be to hard on yourself, just practice for a while

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Re: IMPORTANT! Imperial Navy armor-piercing shells!

Postby Shaftoe » 05 January 2017, 09:41

Oh, but I skipped all the lyrics I had to say.

Problems ARE not solved. If you wanna say that, you must provide grounds to your answer and make it clear. As for now, everything you said is all but naked theory, dished out as facts. You missed the whole part of a great many combat scenarious and required versatility to somehow match the level of IN's opponents. You missed specific powers of those opponents and buffs they got for past few months. I won't fall into scolding everything and everyone. But I will answer your claims below:

1) Crit is a rare thing. Especially when you have a lot of enemies (and possibilities, since you don't know what your adversary will bring to the table) and no room for maxing boardings and crits on your ships, since you have other vital upgrades.
So, this "crit thing" can't be considered as even the tinest excuse for either giving Tau IN armor stats or taking IN armor-piercing away.
Let me tell you, how it now happens. First, Tau mercilessly damage Imperials from afar, then they damage imperials in a mid-range battle, and then - when the rest of SURVIVED Imperial Navy ships reaches them, Tau PERFECTLY HOLD A PUNCH in close combat.

So, should we look deeper into this QUITE UNSOLVED problem and we see that the Imperial Navy HAS NO CLEAR ADVANTAGES over them, because armor-piercing upgrade is dead! This is what called imbalance. Armor-piercing shells counting any armor as 25 should become one.
Problem is not in tactics, because Tau player WITHOUT any tactics can just burn away experienced IN player, thanks to stupidly overbuffed stats and IN lack of means to reach him.

2) Marines outnumbered? What a nonsense! First, they supposed to be outnumbered and so they made to hold in such situations. And the second, they supposed to combat not only Orkz, so even the most powerful ships can be easily destroyed by skillful Space Marine player. In short, SMs will just ram through smaller ship classes and then mop up the rest.
The thing is... SMs achieve victory through boardings and close range damage, while IN used to do it through direct mid-short damage per battery.
But as for now, it is impossible to even make SMs to keep a distance, avoiding IN broadsides. This is not right. This is what called imbalance, since IN is totally helpless in situation, when back and book rules reads: "Superior in close combat". Just ridiculous.

Once again, problem not in tactics, because SMs have their faction feature OK, and IN doesn't.

3) Orkz lightning strike works strangely fine on large distances, against UNDETECTED enemies. But this is the IN armor-piercing shells problem that I brough here, not space fungus strengths and weaknesses. Although, I must say that to somehow ability to punch Orkz battleship, supported by large fleet of escorts or light cruisers right into face, though it's 75 armor is a needed feature.

After all, what I suggest is limited by 3000 units range and changes only macrocannons effectivenes! Maybe it was near-OP in times of old Space Marines, but now they were buffed and Tau Empire joined the fight. Armor-piercing shells upgrade always was important to IN players and it would be a vital advantage to bring overnerfed Imperial Navy back into action, back into fight.
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Re: IMPORTANT! Imperial Navy armor-piercing shells!

Postby Ashardalon » 05 January 2017, 13:11

You missed specific powers of those opponents and buffs they got for past few months.

neither tau nor SM got buffed, tau even got a few nerfs in the last few patches while imps havnt been nerfed since the AP nerf

-First, Tau mercilessly damage Imperials from afar
-Orkz lightning strike works strangely fine on large distances, against UNDETECTED enemies.

thats your problem, you have forgotten how detection works and havnt played any race other then imps
tau dont outperform imps at long range since they cant launch torps at undetected targets, unlike imps who can, and they have a very wide profile making them really vulnerable vs a properly employed torp volley
and no, orks cant lightning strike undetected targets, that just shows you have forgotten how stuff works
all this requires, all the required combat scenarios and intricate techniques, is that you dodge probes
also imp torps have full AP while tau torps have no AP at all so take those to the face if you cant figure out detection and you should be fine

some other advice to help you since i cant hold your hand throughout every battle and every scenario
imps have ramming spikes, combine that with their standard HP gives them a significant advantage in ramming either SM or tau who have less HP making them less dangerous to ram

so...
Let me tell you, how it now happens. First, Tau mercilessly damage Imperials from afar, then they damage imperials in a mid-range battle, and then - when the rest of SURVIVED Imperial Navy ships reaches them, Tau PERFECTLY HOLD A PUNCH in close combat.

-tau finally spot you at 7.5k half dead from torps, so you boost forwards them having no form of AP with imp frontal armor and brace making you almost immune to all damage they can do (you do need some fighter cover, mantas hurt)
-you continue on ramming them right in the face (slightly of center) smashing into the middle of their formation letting you do both broadsides dealing significantly more damage to them and firing into their back which has only standard armor
-when in the middle of their formation , do a high energy turn and ram with your frontal armor into their back and push them into the side of your other ships, do this with your entire fleet for massive damage, dont worry about their damage, they have very low HP thus dealing very little damage to you
-continue pushing, push their front away from your ships, then full stop, because of their wide profile if you stay close enough to their back they cant turn around making it impossible to hurt you at all without first trying to boost away then turning giving you the perfect distance to torp and ram them again

-as a bonus advice, navy favor is awesome against them, since tau torps, unlike SM homing torps, can do friendly fire, get spotted with a cobra, dodge the first round, when they come back for the second go, dodge them again and watch them all flying into their own C with no turret or fighter defense since those dont work vs friendly torps

hope this helps somewhat
try learning more about detection, try out the other factions to learn their weaknesses, its a lot easier to notice how a factions weaknesses work while playing them yourself since its a lot easier to complain then to learn
just use the stuff you complain about against them
but yes the front crit thing is unreliable, but unless im wrong about this their high front armor its lorefriendly, just less usable because of their low hp

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Re: IMPORTANT! Imperial Navy armor-piercing shells!

Postby Shaftoe » 05 January 2017, 22:46

It's not about learning, it's about dealing damage in direct combat. Imperial Navy demands high tactical thinking, while Tau and SMs do not. The problem is... IN called a starter faction and should be more versatile and easy to play. But instead, we have a lot of expensive and "eh... moderate" ships.

Chaos is easier to play than Eldar. IN is not easier to play than SMs. This is not right.
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Re: IMPORTANT! Imperial Navy armor-piercing shells!

Postby Ashardalon » 05 January 2017, 22:56

play the other factions
what you are saying is just not true
hell a lot of people say SM are unplayable except for BB's and like i said, as long as you dont just bunch up and circle tau, imps have better damage and more hp, you just need to smash into their formation and use both broadsides
play the other factions, come back to complain why they are "underpowered" and in doing so learn how to beat them

no faction wins by rightclicking on the enemy and watching the explosions... well... maybe nova+zapp spam orks

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Re: IMPORTANT! Imperial Navy armor-piercing shells!

Postby Shaftoe » 06 January 2017, 00:21

What you say is not true either. Everything you said is not beyond very narrowly pushed theory. I suggest to think about possibilities. About supposed enemies' strengths. About expected way of actions. It's really a big topic and I'm not willing to question your tactical genius. All I want is to get me favorite faction feature back.

Your advices on how to play for the IN make sense, but it's hardly realizable, since enemies are not stupid and certaibly not static. Furthermore, they have their own features and factions like Tau and SMs overpower the IN in every important respect. Yes, there are some dubious "interesting" tactics, but how it tied to Tau and Marines blunt and easy way to crush their enemies?
What people say about SMs is their concern. I see that correctly picked boarding-shaped SM fleet can overpower anything. I see that correctly placed Tau fleet can overpower most of adversaries. I see that Imperial Navy HIGHLY depends on surrounding environment and enemies' failures. That is not right. Especially when the faction supposed to be DANGEROUS in close combat, i.e. have this feature. IN lacks direct damage from macrocannons! I thing it should be provided to IN at least for 3000 range (to scare off SMs and make Tau pay for what they do over and over).

I basically say that we need not words, especially that far from practice, but means to make IN easier to play (like Tau and SMs) and more tactics vital through that.
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Re: IMPORTANT! Imperial Navy armor-piercing shells!

Postby Ashardalon » 06 January 2017, 02:25

SM boarding torps mean you run into probes, witch is not the games fault, DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!!
i remember saying this over and over in the last tread where you kept saying
Everything you said is not beyond very narrowly pushed theory. I suggest to think about possibilities. About supposed enemies' strengths. About expected way of actions.
for 36 pages
what possibility's, give me direct examples and i will give you direct advice on how to beat it, im not going to type out a hypotetical advice for every hypothetical playstyle, its just not worth my time

what i said is also not a very narrowly pushed theory
-tau have a wide profile and low speed giving you ample time to torp them and those torps will ignore their front armor
-imps have widowmakers, making camo alloy scouts irrelevant making it possible for you to reach them unharrased as long as you DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!!
Your advices on how to play for the IN make sense, but it's hardly realizable, since enemies are not stupid and certaibly not static.

actually they are static, main tau strat is firing line, that advice is how you counter it, the other main strat is aircaste+cammoalloy harassment which is not viable vs imps because of widowmakers as long as you DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!!
and what counters?
that push skill? high energy turn and boost again, should only delay you for a second or two (unlike a krootsphere that goes flying across the map XD they really need to add some weight to that thing)
give me some more you dont know how to counter and i will give you advice, but most importantly DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!!
and you keep claiming that SM overpower imps in brawling while their macros need an ungodly amount of micro to get any use out of them, there is a reason they have boarding torps
and again you have ramming spikes, they have low hp, if they want to be at 2.5k for boardings they are only a high energy turn away from getting rammed, unless they stay in your ass like they need to try, unlike imp C's they only have 100pts of void, even a single nova hit will take of 100HP and have i said how they have low HP... so ram them with a ramming spike?
oh yea, and say it with me: DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!
or have a flanking escort boost for about a second and then run silent just before the rest of your fleet gets spotted to waste all their cooldowns so at 11.5k since 10k is beaconrange, but that still requires you to DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!!

I basically say that we need not words, especially that far from practice, but means to make IN easier to play (like Tau and SMs) and more tactics vital through that

and thats why i tell you to play those factions, SM need careful play to win vs an opponent with any skill, and while tau are easy vs noobs they have a very hard time against people with some experience that can DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!!
forget the loading screen, the easiest factions to learn are orks and tau
but those easy lessons will not get you far vs an opponent who know how to play and know how to DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!!

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tada, im a nice guy so i already let his wrecked C and cowardly demiurg run, couldnt hold fire on his other LC fast enough tho :(
notice how their shields are down and have 2 charged nova cannons pointing at them?
and this was against a higher lvl fleet, although the extra points i got weren't enough to field anything and im still relatively noobish with novas
how did i do this? simple, silent running widowmaker, countering their camoflank strat
oh and DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!!
that too

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Re: IMPORTANT! Imperial Navy armor-piercing shells!

Postby Shaftoe » 06 January 2017, 10:45

Possibilities?

That's a good question. The answer is... all unforseen situations. As for now, IN can't provide worthy solutions for them. Especially in 2v2 combat.

You continue to speak about your personal skills and how you'd won this or another situation, while I prefer to make a clear point. And I believe I already made it, but from these walls of text of completely irrelevant speculations you hardly recognize it.

Even the picture you brought. Nova fleet appearance is just nuff said. How does it obstacle use of old armor-piercing upgrade? How in the hell torpedoes tied to my topic? Why do you believe I would get into this massive hundreds of pages long discussion just to prove my point, if I already made it on very simple and basic level? IN lacks strong boardings against most of races, IN can't help itself in close range about experienced Orkz and Space Marines and certainly can't punish long range Tau fleet because of their magical powers. This is a lack of versatility. How to fix it? Make IN more damaging in close combat, so enemies will, at least fear closing imperial ships.
I
N is not the most effective, and cost-effective faction of all. It is impossible to fix as for now. But it is possible to make macrocannons in short range great again. And of all what you said, I don't see a thing that can prove that my suggestion, if implemented, will TOTALLY ruin the balance. Yes, some people will find it harder to win IN in fair combat, but isn't this supposed to bring balance?

As for now, there is no balance for IN at all. I rember when Chaos was afflicted by this sort of a "fine balance". But hell, it wasn't fine at all. Maybe I read you, but how will it change the situation. I believe, the IN should become more tough and dangerous in order to meet requirments of the time.
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Re: IMPORTANT! Imperial Navy armor-piercing shells!

Postby Ashardalon » 06 January 2017, 12:54

That's a good question. The answer is... all unforseen situations. As for now, IN can't provide worthy solutions for them.

give me one and i will give you a solution
i have given several examples of how to win against factions for who you where saying you needed AP, but you dont, imps have some of the strongest macros in the game, making them deadly in close range, but that doesnt mean you can just set engagement range to 3k right click on the enemy and win everything, that doesnt work for any race why should it for imps
give me an actual example for that question or LEARN TO DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!! which the enemy of imps cant because of the emperorclas, widowmaker and inquisition

on the especially in 2v2 i will admit imps point cost makes it difficult for 300pts matches except for a retribution+widowmaker

You continue to speak about your personal skills and how you'd won this or another situation, while I prefer to make a clear point. And I believe I already made it, but from these walls of text of completely irrelevant speculations you hardly recognize it.

im not, im not even that good at microing, but i know the strategies every faction has aswell as their weaknesses because i play them all unlike you who just plays imps by rightclicking on the enemy and DOESN'T DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!!
and i am aware of the point you try to make, its: WAAAAAAA i cant win with imps by setting engagement range to 3k and rightclicking on the red dot on the other side of the screen running FACE FIRST INTO PROBES!!!
-marines have low hp and weak voids if you take away their armor at their ideal engagement range they will have an even harder time vs imps, now that balance is good and marines already need to switch out which ship bodyblocks to stand a chance
you claim to have a marine boarding build that will crush imps, post it i am curious and will tryu it out, see if it can just rightclick on the enemy and win
-tau have less dps then imps as long as you use both broadsides and as long as you DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!! they will start the engagement with atleast 1/4th of their hp missing and their repairdrones already on cooldown while your ships will still have a perfect paintjob (unless earthcaste)... so less dps and less hp, you just need some skill in maneuvering
oh no some skill in maneuvering, not just rightclicking on the enemy... how horrible
-last faction with 75 armor is orks who like imps have 75 frontal armor and like imps use this frontal armor to ram people, but imps can do high energy turns and orks cant, they cant even stop boosting, so all you need to do to get the advantage vs orks is not get hit by their ram and your oh so valued AP shells would be pointless since you will be shooting into 25 armor as you should be doing anyway with orks, meanwhile ork kannonz cant have any form of AP and their gunz are... kinda irrelevant, but thats a different discussion so... imps have a noticeable advantage vs orks in a 2.5k to 7k brawl as long as they dont get rammed and can out turn their enemy which isnt that hard since orks can barely turn at all, zaps being turreted is kinda an annoyance but like all lances get massively outperformed by macros at that range

so while this does require some level of skill, and mostly to DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!! imps do not need a buff in brawls or in macros, only thing they need is that, just like every other faction, you micro your pathing a little and DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!!
especially not the old AP shells that would turn any fight vs marines into an annoying kitefest forcing imps to bring novas

you keep claiming that these faction can do things they just cant, like teleporting into undetected targets, showing that you dont know what you are talking about, then refusing to give actual examples for why they need this buff claiming "unforeseen situations" with the only faction with 12k detection

Even the picture you brought. Nova fleet appearance is just nuff said. How does it obstacle use of old armor-piercing upgrade? How in the hell torpedoes tied to my topic? Why do you believe I would get into this massive hundreds of pages long discussion just to prove my point, if I already made it on very simple and basic level?

it obstacles the use of the old AP since imps dont need it
if imps had it tau wouldnt stand a chance, a single plasmamacro volley wrecks tau voids as is and while imps have AP and more HP and more dps when using both broadsides and tau dont have any form of AP at all imps already have a massive advantage vs tau at that range
and this ties into novas and torps because if you buff imps that are already more then capable of fighting tau you need to nerf them somewhere
imps have novas, torps and macros... you would have to nerf them enough to make AP a mandatory upgrade which is just a stupid idea from someone who doesn't know how to DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!! and gets blindsided playing the only faction with 12k detection
same for marines by the way, watch a chaos LC melt to a plasmamacro volley, the same would happen to marine cruisers, they would die before they get even a single boarding done

IN lacks strong boardings against most of races, IN can't help itself in close range about experienced Orkz and Space Marines and certainly can't punish long range Tau fleet because of their magical powers.

-imps have the same boardings as any other faction, how is that even an argument
-orks NEED to ram, dodge the ram, shoot them in 25 armor, no need for the upgrade, irrelevant and just wrong
-for marines to stand a chance vs imps in a straight fight they need to constantly switch who is bodyblocking, there is a reason SM C's hide behind BB's or are constantly high energy turning to avoid your broadsides
but its perfectly fine that they have to put in a ton of effort to get a win, not for imps tho, imps get to set engagement to 3k and then let the rest up to the AI... shure
-tau have less hp and less dps then both imp broadsides and WHAT DAMN MAGICAL POWERS YOU VAGUE NON PROBEDODGING... person
This is a lack of versatility. How to fix it? Make IN more damaging in close combat, so enemies will, at least fear closing imperial ships.

how is a mandatory or a gamebreakingly unbalanced upgrade a lack of versatility
imps have decent carriers, decent torps, decent novas that let you start the brawl with your enemies voids already down and the best macros in the game WITH the ability to get AP unlike orks (gunz dont count) or tau as well as decent hp and armor and some of the best voids in the game AND the option to go fight as nimble orks ramming everything
how is this not versatile??? how??? an actual example none of that "unforeseen situations" bull, name one reason that being decent at everything doesnt make them versatile
they can even outperform watercaste with the navy favor, spamming stuff until the game crashes (mostly on station defense missions)
IN is not the most effective, and cost-effective faction of all. It is impossible to fix as for now

and it shouldnt be, there shouldnt be an auto win faction, no matter how bad you are at DODGING THE DAMN PROBES!!! and just want to let the AI do everything
all factions should be viable, and while there are exceptions like nova/zapp spam orks and trolly eldar that balance is pretty good right now
But it is possible to make macrocannons in short range great again. And of all what you said, I don't see a thing that can prove that my suggestion, if implemented, will TOTALLY ruin the balance. Yes, some people will find it harder to win IN in fair combat, but isn't this supposed to bring balance?

they are great, you arnt but they are
they massively outperform lances in a brawl and since marines need to brawl and orks need to survive until they can ram which is a great risk in itself
it might not totally ruin the balance but it will damage it greatly, SM already need a lot more micro to be viable vs imps, how is making them completely unviable, already suffering under chaos lances a good balance change?
how is making imps capable of winning every fight with just the use of AI autotargetting going to add to the balance? imps are already the only faction for who AP rounds are a viable choice (maybe chaos too, i should play them more often) and while a situational one (eldar and ork asses) still a pretty good one
orks have gunz, tau dont have any, and marine standard macros are almost negligible imps already rule at that range while other races need to fight at that range too, marines mostly
what do you suggest we give them? and then hop down the rabbithole of buffing in a circle forever
or what part of versatile imps do you want to remove? nerfing any of their weapon types would make that part of them almost unviable
there is balance currently, if you want unreasonable buffs something needs a nerf
but we have to take into consideration "all unforseen situations" where somehow orks can magically teleport into an undetected ship but should also completely ignore imps skill with torps, novas, carriers and ramming spikes... sure seems well balanced
believe, the IN should become more tough and dangerous in order to meet requirments of the time.

or maybe you should learn detection and DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!! since the requirements of the time havnt changed at all especially for brawls
but mostly just DODGE THE DAMN PROBES!!! instead of saying a soulless race can do magic


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