Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 15 October 2016, 01:53

Ashardalon wrote:increased hp alone will still screw with ork rammers, if they run brace ramming them with their low hp is still hurting you more then them
too much of that combined with improved damage from macros + orks getting double damage from boarding will kill non zapp ork fleets


That's why at the same time orkz should get AP + some boost to heavy kannonz, I didn't say buff orkz cc or SM hp.

As I said, don't look through faction A vs faction B prism alone. Orkz need improvements to their cc and nerfs to zzzaps because they do, not because SM just so happen to have better armour.
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Ashardalon » 15 October 2016, 02:18

true, but more shields will have less effects on other things, hull points can do a lot on sutch a fast faction
also not everyone wants kannons, even when they where op i didnt like them

would love to see the ork hull upgrade back though, it would really help rammers and still benefit every other ork build

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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 15 October 2016, 04:47

Ashardalon wrote:true, but more shields will have less effects on other things, hull points can do a lot on sutch a fast faction
also not everyone wants kannons, even when they where op i didnt like them

would love to see the ork hull upgrade back though, it would really help rammers and still benefit every other ork build


Valid points.

Not sure about hull upgrade tho, I saw it as a waste of upgrade slot. Doesn't improve ram dmg all that much, doesn't do that much of a difference in survivability either, the faction already has the most hull points.

As for kannonz, they are bread and butter of orkz close quarters firepower, nothing wrong with using them. I mean both forward firing cans of f*ck you and the broadside ones.

Overall, all close range upgrade guns should be buffed one way or another, with the exception of basic lotsa gunz (because we don't want to make orkz utterly OP in cc either.
Last edited by Ahzek Ahriman on 15 October 2016, 22:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Beernchips » 15 October 2016, 07:36

Adjusting one faction with only 1 other specific faction in mind is a terrible approach.


As I said, don't look through faction A vs faction B prism alone.


You don t balance 1 faction vs 1 other faction but if the changes make faction A vs faction B a non-match. It is called a NoGO.
And thats why you start to understand why balancing in RTS is hard.
If you make a change which is good for A vs B; A vs C but really bad for A vs D : it is a BAD balance change.
On that case, making Orks better but killing the match up vs SM is not a good balance chance.
If we continue example :
Make the changes to Orks but give more HP to SM too make the Orks vs SM match up relevent is OK but what happens to SM vs other factions match ups? Not sure IN will be able to stand the fight because they will have egal HP, no AP reduction as Orks and less TV.
Balancing is hard, thats why it takes time for fine tuning. There is a reason why other companies make small changes and at slow rate on their RTS games

For the topic, the only thing not good is giving the old AP Ammo to Orks. The actual (25 armor reduction) is OK because SM will still have best armor vs macros (50 all around). If SM really want to avoid firepower he will have to manoeuvre to stay in rear arc of Ork or at range where Ork accuracy is low.
Anyway, even with more CQC upgrades, at the end we still come back to the old problem with orks : How catch enemy in CQC? The answer was zzaps upgrades (slow, ability to crit engine at long range trough shield), if you remove them then they will need other tools to close the gap
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Imperator5 » 15 October 2016, 07:42

Ork kannons getting -25 AP on 3k upgrade back seems like the good idea.

Again, SM Lc and Scs are bad. I really think a HP boost to them is the only , and I say ONLY available path.

Without that they will never, ever have a chance against Eldar, Chaos or Tau. I would even go so far as to increase the Boarding torpedo CD by some time to make their hulls better.
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Beernchips » 15 October 2016, 12:06

Strike cruisers are far from bad. They only fear carriers and lances but vs other macro ships it is a fair fight.
Vanguard are bad and are currently limited to torp/thunderhawks spam from afar

if you compare
Health increase :
- effective vs bombers
- effective vs lances
- effective in ramming
- effective vs macro (very strong with 75 armor)
- effective vs torps
- effective vs assaults (fire/hull breach part)

Shield increase :
- effective vs lances
- effective vs macro
- regenerates
- synergizes with voss

The HP increase is risky because it is hard to predict if it is not TOO good for SM. No one wants a change to make SM too OP
Shield increase can work and will fit with hit and run patterns (you go in and regenerate shield between attacks runs) but it don t help vs bombers/torps
THe best solution is probably a mix of HP/shield increase or shield + defense against ordnances
But it is not topic related and won t help Orks at all :)
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Sagranda » 15 October 2016, 12:32

what really triggers me is the use of "cc" for close combat from some...
CC = crowd crontol
CQC = close quarters combat
get it right!

Ahzek Ahriman wrote:Not sure about hull upgrade tho, I saw it as a waste of upgrade slot. Doesn't improve ram dmg all that much, doesn't do that much of a difference in survivability either, the faction already has the most hull points.


Even slight things can make the needed difference and I would take the hull points every day over the Weirdboy Tower or Bonkers Mek (or whatever that kamikaze upgrade is called) upgrade.
Especially after they introduced the Looted Ship trait (which needs to be adjusted or removed anyway) and the that idiotic speed upgrade which can blow up your engines.
It also would compensate for an eventual SM hp buff when it comes to ramming

Ashardalon wrote:increased hp alone will still screw with ork rammers, if they run brace ramming them with their low hp is still hurting you more then them
too much of that combined with improved damage from macros + orks getting double damage from boarding will kill non zapp ork fleets


Use Brace Yourself when you go for a ram.
It was always a viable choice, since you "only" get the crit-chance-buff from Lock On as CQC Ork fleet anyway. A CQC Ork fleet won't let their Kannonz fire before 0k range, so the accuracy part is wasted, while Lock On doesn't only help with ramming, but also gives an all around defense buff.

Also, they don't take double damage from boardings, but from "Fire" and "Hull Break" boarding events.


People also need to keep the following in mind:
Creating a CQC Ork fleet means less Zzaps to slow the enemy and since there's no silent running (outside of the Favour) you also need Kroot Launchas to field a defense against Torpedoes (especially homming ones) and Bombers, which means either less utility (Zzap slow) or CQC damage.
You also can't use the BRB often to close in when you use the speed upgrade, since there's a chance that it will blow up your engines. Yes, you can repair it, but then it is on cooldown and can't be used against fires, other crit-events or too simply regain hull points.
Not going for the speed upgrade means though that the enemy has an easier time avoiding your fleet altogether and getting away from close range.



On a side note:
I can already see some players whining again should the Orks get their ap upgrade back, since it will be the same situation for Chaos as during the beta (in terms of damage) and for IN/Tau when attacking their sides.
Not that I care though, just a "funny thought".
I play Orkz to collect all those salty Imperial tears
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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 15 October 2016, 21:21

Sagranda wrote:what really triggers me is the use of "cc" for close combat from some...
CC = crowd crontol
CQC = close quarters combat
get it right!


I'm well aware of the difference, but if the discussion is clearly about close quarters engagements and not crowd control (you wouldn't happen to use bombs when your own ships close in to ram/board), then it's not really a big deal.
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby MYNAME? » 17 October 2016, 02:47

I cant wait to see the nids be released and totally face screw the orks... Nids play style are basicly gonna be like orks on steroids and much better.

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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 17 October 2016, 04:09

MYNAME? wrote:I cant wait to see the nids be released and totally face screw the orks... Nids play style are basicly gonna be like orks on steroids and much better.


...I'm just waiting for R*pecronpocalypse.
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