Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

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Pleb Squasher
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Pleb Squasher » 13 October 2016, 03:08

Harlequin wrote:Thats a typical problem from spamming favors.
It dosen't matter which faction.

I don't mean, Zzap spam is not disgusting; i mean, each race has discusting things.
But, with Eldar or Chaos you were almost forced to choose the one playstyle that works most.

Tzeentch & Bombers/Lances, Zzap/Novaspam as orc, Tau & Marine guided projectiles, the Emperor and the Widowmaker.

But it's true, against a good orc player, i struggle even with 2x eclipse, because i don't deal enough damage without massive Ulthwe-Storm-Spam, until he forces me down. If i stay away and work with bombers, then they just hunt my slower teammate down.

But on the other side, a Orcfleet without that range, could be kitet all the day, so thats not a good solution either.

I really don't know, how we could improve the balance, without making massive changes to almost all factions. :?


Tzeentch & Bombers/Lances, Zzap/Novaspam as orc, Tau & Marine guided projectiles, the Emperor and the Widowmaker.

- Tzeentch & bombers, it's a perfectly counterable tactic, I've never seen it called op before.
- Chaos lances, yeah I agree, they need some minor nerfs
- Ork Nova spam has never caused me any issues, however I don't see it often and from what I hear it is pretty ridiculous.
- Yup, guided projectiles have a very simple fix though, just nerf turning and give them a flat 15-20 second fly time. Pretty sure Tau projectiles were supposed to have limited fly time but apparently the devs are too incompetent to implement such a small feature. Boarding torps also deserve longer CD as they approx double SM boarding actions per minute.
- The Emperor and the Widowmaker are in no way OP at all. There's no debate regarding these two ships, they're unique but not op.

Orks need a complete overhaul, I wrote a post about it ages back with a whole bunch of ideas which would really benefit them in general while keeping them reasonable. Zzaps just need to be nerfed again...

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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Pleb Squasher » 13 October 2016, 03:11

Ahzek Ahriman wrote:
Mister Maf wrote:Wouldn't the easy thing to do be to just remove their ability to crit at ridiculously high rates through shields?


Just removing the ability to pierce through shields altogether would be enough, slight reduction of crit rate would be good too but unnecessary.

I see zzzaps as near no damage weapons with long range and high crit rate, but useless if the enemy has shields on. It's how they were supposed to work before the whole ork overhaul when Tindalos adjusted them to give SM chance of winning.

The thing is, back then the weapon crit calculation system was flawed and guns made no crits at all (it was fixed sometime after the introduction zzzapocalypse) and zzzaps were absolutely worthless at a time.

Without shield piercing they would be unviable as core weapon because they just wouldn't bring shields down, unless in conjuction with something else.

So... remove the shield piercing upgrade (would free up slot for something more interesting), perhaps reduce the amount of slots that zzzaps can occupy and we'll have a perfect support weapon that wouldn't work as main source of damage.


Yeah zzaps just need to be well and truly removed as the 'primary weapon' option. Give anything smaller than the Deff dealer 1 zzap max and leave it at that. Generally though Orks need a complete overhaul, especially regarding mobility and what are -supposed- to be their core weapons, so gunz and kannonz

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Imperator5
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Imperator5 » 13 October 2016, 16:43

So what can the orks than do against Marines and Tau both with 75 armour AND 75 shields for the tau?

If zapps are nerfed, the ork kannons need some form of AP. Either an upgrade, or an inbuilt for the megas.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 14 October 2016, 16:22

Imperator5 wrote:So what can the orks than do against Marines and Tau both with 75 armour AND 75 shields for the tau?

If zapps are nerfed, the ork kannons need some form of AP. Either an upgrade, or an inbuilt for the megas.


Most definitely. I don't understand why in the first place they removed the most important CQC upgrade in the game, from the most CQC oriented faction in the game.
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Sagranda
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Sagranda » 14 October 2016, 17:03

Ahzek Ahriman wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:So what can the orks than do against Marines and Tau both with 75 armour AND 75 shields for the tau?

If zapps are nerfed, the ork kannons need some form of AP. Either an upgrade, or an inbuilt for the megas.


Most definitely. I don't understand why in the first place they removed the most important CQC upgrade in the game, from the most CQC oriented faction in the game.


Because people cried for it.

Nerf Orks! Remove AP upgrade! Nerf damage! Nerf crit-chance! Nerf speed! Nerf survive-ability! Increase ship-costs! And that all the same time!!!

That's why AP ammo for Orks got removed. Because the devs listened to idiots, even though others told them that it won't work with the Space Marine 75 all around armor and that there are better ways to balance it.

Ork Kannonz with AP ammo were strong, no doubt.
But at the same time around 90% of the people I faced or saw on streams over all time-zones played the Ork MU just plain stupid and then complained about balance. Standing still and letting the CQC faction close in is not the way you play against the faction that is supposed to rip you apart at 3k and less range.
Easier to cry about balance instead of improving ones game-play and admitting the own mistakes though...
I play Orkz to collect all those salty Imperial tears
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Bludfist
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Bludfist » 14 October 2016, 18:01

Sagranda wrote:
Ork Kannonz with AP ammo were strong, no doubt.

Yeah but only with the previous iteration that made it to auto 25 armor not -25
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Beernchips
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Beernchips » 14 October 2016, 19:19

Except that everything that brings armor to 25 is death sentence for SM (look at how bombers/lancs fleets wreck them).
So you are asking to balance by giving another faction an impossible match up?
Orks will have armor reduction AND 2 times hp of SM AND high TV

Give the current AP ammo upgrade, change the gunz upgrades to more CQC upgrades (more damage below 3k range, more accuracy below 3k range or after a success boarding, possibility to board in front arc..) and Orks will have strong CQC without insta win vs SM
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Imperator5
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Imperator5 » 14 October 2016, 21:50

Beernchips wrote:Except that everything that brings armor to 25 is death sentence for SM (look at how bombers/lancs fleets wreck them).
So you are asking to balance by giving another faction an impossible match up?
Orks will have armor reduction AND 2 times hp of SM AND high TV

Give the current AP ammo upgrade, change the gunz upgrades to more CQC upgrades (more damage below 3k range, more accuracy below 3k range or after a success boarding, possibility to board in front arc..) and Orks will have strong CQC without insta win vs SM


This is not an ork problem. This is an SM problem and it won't go away until they get more hit points.
http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 14 October 2016, 23:50

Beernchips wrote:Except that everything that brings armor to 25 is death sentence for SM (look at how bombers/lancs fleets wreck them).
So you are asking to balance by giving another faction an impossible match up?
Orks will have armor reduction AND 2 times hp of SM AND high TV

Give the current AP ammo upgrade, change the gunz upgrades to more CQC upgrades (more damage below 3k range, more accuracy below 3k range or after a success boarding, possibility to board in front arc..) and Orks will have strong CQC without insta win vs SM


Adjusting one faction with only 1 other specific faction in mind is a terrible approach.
As Imperator said, SM incredible weakness to full AP weaponry is their problem, you can't send the entire other faction to the hell of imbalance just to give the former a chance.
SM need health boost and possibly slight macro improvements to ships below BB's, that would give them more chance not only against potential AP orkz but also other factions, greenskins have absolutely nothing to do with the state SM are/would be in.

See, just before the introduction of SM all AP upgrades got reworked to -25 AP instead of 25 set, which was one of the smartest changes Tindalos made. Offset by possibly the most stupid one, which was removing AP from orkz altogether.
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Ashardalon
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Re: Once again, Ork zzap spam is disgusting

Postby Ashardalon » 15 October 2016, 00:49

increased hp alone will still screw with ork rammers, if they run brace ramming them with their low hp is still hurting you more then them
too much of that combined with improved damage from macros + orks getting double damage from boarding will kill non zapp ork fleets


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