Making Orks viable

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Bludfist
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Bludfist » 06 September 2016, 04:22

Ashardalon wrote:no running silent when the first shot ignores voids and rips your deck off
if voids get ignored by lances it becomes uncounterable

Y u no deck armor?

Y u no second bridge upgrade?
unreliable but uncounterable
i think what Ahzek wants is that the slow effect happens when hitting voids instead of just when hitting hull and the voidpierce is removed, it is what i would like

Then he should have just said that
ps, rangers are bugged now so saying the shokk attack needs a buff because its not as powerful as broken rangers is stupid
rangers are currently gamebreaking, they need to be fixed not other things buffed so they can break the game to

In what way way is ranger favor bugged? Further more it's justified by being unuseable for the first 5 mins of a match and having a 5 min cd plus it requires you to go into LS range
similarly 9k ork gunz? so ork gunz with more range then imperial macros... stupid

Oh did they remove the 12k range imperial plasma macros? Also gunz have garbage accrucy at 9k range and further more no armor pen or consistent reliable dps either b/c lolorksneedtoberandumb

+the delay for the boosts helps turning, useful to correct if someone tries to dodge, and useful for the little bit of space you need for an induction coil second ram, sure it makes it worse for dodging but thats not what that boost is for

Your ship comes to a standstill before boosting furthermore I have trakktors to aim ships for me, secondly the speed upgrade acctully deters you from multi boosting
restayvien pretty much said it, it comes down to playstyle, im playing mostly orks lately and the only fight i dont stand a chance is vs rangerspam eldar, most other fights i win
also how? how are you playing orks that nurgle means a instalose for you? nurgle needs to get close, s

Chaos ships arnt fragile espically not vs, they are the strongest faction in the game and the strongest vs orks

Tons of carriers vs a factions with low turrents and garbage overpriced ordinance bays

Fast ships with long range lances vs orks high front armor

MoS fucks with orks poor morale, removes orders and silences attempts at boarding actions

MoT cloud counters Zzzaps

MoN counters orks close range prowess in assault actions and with out armor piercing their dps isn't that scary vs chaos have armor pericing vs orks and consistent dps from cloud
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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 06 September 2016, 04:40

Bludfist wrote:
Ahzek Ahriman wrote:
I agree on all but one, what did you mean to say about zzzaps? Inherited? If that was your thought then by all means no, zzaps should not have shield piercing, that's what made them so cancerous. Default passive slow by all means yes, shield pierce no, even as an upgrade.
At the same time they can have their damage buffed back, with more costly ships and no shield piercing they'd be back where they were, supportive weapon at best.


Zzzaps are the slowest firing lance weapons in the game the 2 second snare will do jack all if shields keep regening and mitigating Zzzap shots if shield/ holofield bypass no longer exists

after all its not like lance weapons are hard to deal with, running silent etc.

This will result in ork players having to stack mass Zzzaps again to try and over power shields from a distance to slow targets which will result in qq about Zzzap cancer once again


Wait so you say that if zzzaps don't mitigate shields people will use cancer orkz again but if they do bypass shields there will be no cancer? Sorry but where's logic in that? If they keep mitigating shields that will be all the more reason for people to mass zzzaps as the primary source of damage.

Zzzaps should not serve or be even remotely close to reliable source of dps for orkz, and that is exactly what shield mitigation gives/gave them: reliable, consistent damage to the hull. Ramming and close range guns are damage dealers for orkz (although as they are, with no AP ammo they can't do that, which is the second most important problem for orkz as I see it now).

They are supposed to be a support weapon, with high crit rate, long range, slow being a nice addition. 2 sec slow is plenty enough.

We had taunt/tractor/ramming cancer orkz, we had mass slow/shield bypass cancer orkz (we still sorta have), give zzzaps more than 2 sec slow and we'll have a combination of the two, cancer zzzap, tractor ramming orkz, that's not really a good prospect for the future.

P.S.
Indeed I meant for slow to take effect whether shields are up or not, my bad for not stating it explicitly. It would make a good trade-off for losing shield piercing (which again, I'm all for removing).
Actually I haven't played the game so long I forgot that slow doesn't take place with void shields up, because I'm waiting for an update that actually makes changes to the game, whether official or VI mod.
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Ashardalon
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Ashardalon » 06 September 2016, 05:33

In what way way is ranger favor bugged? Further more it's justified by being unuseable for the first 5 mins of a match and having a 5 min cd plus it requires you to go into LS range


viewtopic.php?f=32&t=22434

it has infinite range, giving the fastest faction a infinite range permacrit would be stupid if it wasnt a bug

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Bludfist
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Bludfist » 06 September 2016, 11:16

Ashardalon wrote:
In what way way is ranger favor bugged? Further more it's justified by being unuseable for the first 5 mins of a match and having a 5 min cd plus it requires you to go into LS range


viewtopic.php?f=32&t=22434

it has infinite range, giving the fastest faction a infinite range permacrit would be stupid if it wasnt a bug

Wo

I havt played in a while, so I didn't know that was a thing

That's bull, and it hasn't been fixed yet?

It's nonsense like this that drives away players
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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 06 September 2016, 14:39

Eh, from my personal experience whenever I use rangers or get rangered (if Eldar lives long enough in the first place) I only score fire or hull breach.
But yeah, just another thing that should be fixed, and if only Tindalos actually paid attention to what we discuss on this very forum and took some advices this game would quickly bump back in popularity.
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Sagranda
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Sagranda » 06 September 2016, 17:43

They do listen. Just to the wrong people.
Else Orks, Pulsars and other stuff would have never been in such a state.
I play Orkz to collect all those salty Imperial tears
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malcontent333
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby malcontent333 » 07 September 2016, 19:08

I'm close to happy with how orks are now, bar just a few things.

Zzap shield pen is silly and should go, but I like the idea of the slow effect applying even with shields up.

Kannons: I'd like to see the range upgrade come back (even with the poor accuracy, I found this upgrade useful for medium range brawling with faster fleets). Also, I think they should either come with or be eligible for the modified AP (-25% armour).

Looted ship: I'm ok with this along with the price cut, but I'd prefer to lose both.

Favors: I think these are in a pretty good place, but I'd personally like to toss out Blood Axes in exchanged for Deathskullz. In the tabletop, this would allow you (for a price) to exchange the kannons with firepower 2 30cm lances and/or replace crummy Ork torpedo launchas with better Imperial launchers

Boost and speed: OK with these at the moment. I'd like the pause to go, but it's rarely long enough for my opponents to dodge a properly lined up ram. The speed upgrade rarely cooks my engines, but I make regular sacrifices to the Dice Gods so my experience could be off.

I think that's about it for me.
Orkz is never beatin in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we legz it we don't die neither, so we can come back for annuver go, see!

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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Pleb Squasher » 14 September 2016, 11:38

While I appreciate the discussion, people should try to address the op as those are the suggestions everyone will see and imo (obviously, as i wrote the op) I consider them the most important.

Looted ship: This attribute needs to remain, even if only to give SM fleets a way to fight Orks. SM rely almost purely on boarding and the induced fire/hull breaches for their damage. Orks have a LOT of HP so the bonus is intended to give SM less of a hard time vs Orks, especially since SM need to enter Ork 'sweet spot' range to board properly. It would be a good idea if this bonus was an SM thing only, however that may not happen.
Obviously SM have BBs, however without them you have absolutely no damage to compete against Orks. Looted ship trait must stay as SM guns do nothing...

What we need to focus on isn't so much things like zzap and all these weirdo other options, the focus needs to be on getting Orks into a reliable state, and improving their mobility to a more tolerable extent. Zzap can wait as they're tolerable right now, just.

Focus on their core gameplay stuff! Mobility and shooting.

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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Pleb Squasher » 14 September 2016, 12:02

Imperator5 wrote:A: The engine halving is done to the red button giving you engine crits if you take the speed upgrade. Yeah its too much I agree, but it is not a bug.

B: Prow blowups are a serious issue for SM and orks. Why can't they have the eldar prow that does not suffer from it?

C: The armour implementation is another bad board game thing. Armour always should be damage reduction, not negation chance, in every and any and all games. Blame GW.


I believe I've seen this bug occur, not due to the upgrade crit, but another cause. When you activate your boost, you'll see the Ork ship's speed drops to half before the boost activates. Sometimes, this half speed gets stuck as the ships max speed.

Prow blowups are currently not a crippling issue, as much as they are annoying. Additionally, SM and Orks don't have as much to fear from boarding actions which make up a large percentage of crit causes so this issue isn't something that need urgent addressing despite the inconvenience it causes. It also discourages NK spam to some degree.

Flat damage reductions are always better than damage vs no damage. The armour system for BFG actually works pretty well though and doesn't need a rework. I would blame GW but hey, when you're using dice things need to be kept simple. Solving this problem, is making Ork kannonz are bit more accurate so you can actually expect hits at 3k, and have enough hits that some will pass through armour. Currently, kannonz just function as a ramming damage bonus really, they just never hit unless you're scraping the enemy hull with the barrel.

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Ashardalon
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Ashardalon » 14 September 2016, 12:16

i wish the hull point upgrade was brought back for orks
as a ramming faction is how orks have been and always will be the most balanced
but since that upgrade was removed they lost their only way of increasing ramming damage
in exchange for a weirdboy tower or slightly better gunz? i would prefer the HP

never had the speed bug happen to me, and i have been playing orks a lot lately, you sure your engines didnt just blow?
but from modding i know good enough that every pc has its own favorite bugs


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