Making Orks viable

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Pleb Squasher
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Making Orks viable

Postby Pleb Squasher » 04 September 2016, 11:34

I've been experimenting with Orks a lot lately, they're fun but they are complete garbage. Orks cannot do anything against a fleet that can keep distance. Not only that, but Orks can't even do well at what they're supposed to be good at, namely crashing into enemy ships at close range, or utilising their quirky tactics and boarding to gain an edge. Orks are not only slow, but have the most terribly designed, overly punishing and unreliable manoeuvring system in the game. Due to the inherent randomness and unreliability present in literally all Ork ingame tools, they simply aren't useful. Additionally, the problem is further compounded by the fact that due to Orks simple, one way design and use they are incredibly easy to counter is gimmicky fashions, the Nurgle favour being one of the worst offenders.

Now, I'll try and keep the rest of this post as concise as I can, here's what Orks need to make them actually viable, and to bring balancing them away from gimmicks and into the world of measurable effectiveness and common sense.

Ork boosting
Firstly:
Remove the delay on the Ork boost. There is no reason for this feature, the Ork boost is already the most limited manoeuvre option in the game. The Orks absolutely completely rely on it and there's no good reason to hinder it's usefulness in such an unjustified way.
Secondly:
The Ork boost gives a random speed buff value. Provide an upgrade to the Orks, which guarantees that the max boost is applied each time the boost is used. This is incredibly important as it provides the Orks with an option for increased reliability for their mobility, something they desperately need.

Lotsa Gunz
Increase all default range for lotsa gunz to 9k. Lotsa guns are supposed to be the Orks main source of long ranged damage. This damage is the only thing which makes them competitive against Eldar. Lotsa gunz do not need damage buffs, they just need to be able to fulfil their role properly. Forget zzap, zzap is just for utility, requiring fleet wide spam to provide useful damage, lotsa gunz should be the focus or Orks long ranged weapon options.

Dethdeala speed
The dethdeala is useless for one reason, it's disgustingly slow. The dethdeala NEEDS to be faster to be viable in any sense. Forget all the situational side arguments, it needs to be faster so it is generally useful, instead of being a massive burden. All Orks ships are already too slow and clumsy to catch anything, buffing dethdeala speed to match all other Ork ships would do worlds to help this vessel and I guarantee you that it would not break this ship. Even just buff the base speed to 138 (the same as with the speed upgrade).
For those who are staunchly convinced this vessel will be OP with slight speed buffs, remember that Tindalos has subjected us to far worse problems than a slightly faster dethdeala (sorry but it's true!) so I think this is one ["potential"] mistake the community can manage... Anyway as I said, I am 100% certain that this buff would not make the Dethdeala op.

Remove the ridiculous bug which seems to halve Ork speed when they use their boost too often. You're supposed to spam that boost!

Kannonz
Reduce kannon damage but make them more reliable and accurate. Kannonz already have to be painfully close to even fire, when even one shot of their damage from a volley of 4 rounds doesn't apply, you question if they're even worth using. Many options already exist to avoid kannon damage, brace works well and simply flying away works even better. Make it worthwhile for Orks to get close!

Finally, Ork ship pricing
With the above buffs, I dare say Orks might actually be useful, perhaps putting their prices back to how they were before the ridiculous, band aid solution reductions would be a good idea.
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Changes to favours:
This is a big deal, Ork favours aren't inherently bad conceptually, but they really need some serious tinkering, especially to bring them in line with other factions favours.

Evil Sunz:
Change the traktor kannon: Make it move enemy ships slightly less then now (yep!) but dramatically buff the distance it moves Ork ships. I've seen some very creative players making good use out of the traktor kannonz in this way but they need help to make it pay off. This kind of change would result in Traktors being less of a gimmicky tool to draw in enemies and a much more effective (and hilarious/viable) support tool for Ork fleets! This is a super important suggestion!!!

Blood Axes:
Blood axes are once again, good conceptually but bad in practice. The NKs are far too cheesy (but also unreliable which is never good, for both sides) and Kommando training is simply awful due to Ork slow speed. NKs need to lose the destruction chance, but also need to just push up the points cost of the ship using them. Very simple fix
Kommando training should provide double the standard running silent time. Because Orks are slow running silent is less useful to them because they can't displace much while hidden which is important. The double running silent time now makes this feature worthwhile.

Goffs:
Not really much to do here, this favour actually makes sense and is pretty flawless in itself, it just relies on you getting very close, good luck!
Note: If you're not going to remove the boost delay for Orks in general, at least remove it with this favour so that players can make proper use of the ramming gob!

Bad Moons:
Extra upgrade slot? Can't go wrong there. Shock attack gun? Not a bad idea but complete garbage when compared to ridiculous things like the Eldar ranger lightening strike which is a guaranteed crit that can actually deal permanent damage! I disagree with a permanent damage guaranteed crit, but my god this favour is piecemeal when compared to the Ranger Strike. Make the Shock attack gun the same damn thing, just without the two actions and the perma crit...

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On a side note, there are several options in game that have a gimmicky effect that actually hurts the Orks. It's very easy to fight Ork fleets as Chaos, when you're running a few ships with Nurgle favour. I'm not saying we need to nerf these options (although Nurgle is pretty bullshit at the moment on Chaos, who you're supposed to brawl to beat) but it should be considered that these options hurt Ork's already limited capabilities even moreso.

I hope the devs see this, hopefully they'll let us know if they like any of these ideas! :D
Last edited by Pleb Squasher on 13 October 2016, 03:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Bludfist
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Bludfist » 04 September 2016, 13:48

Thats good and all but we need to address the elephant in the room

The devs need to revert the awful and unnecessary across the board price cuts that no one asked for

Ork ships were already cheap in comparison to other faction ships and its going to be hard to justify buff to orks when they can field 7+ ships in coparison to the 4-5 of other factions

Secondly can we stop trying to solve everything with upgrades? an upgrade for this, an upgrade for that

do we really want to go back to a time of "mandatory" upgrades?

Lastly i tire of the statement that Zzzaps are "untility weapons", i called caligar out for this statement too when he explained the devs intention behind zzzaps changes, you cannot make something be a unity tool but them make it require 2 mandatory upgrades to function in that role
one or both of the zzzap upgrades need to become an intent trait of zzzaps
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Pleb Squasher
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Pleb Squasher » 05 September 2016, 10:11

Bludfist wrote:Thats good and all but we need to address the elephant in the room

The devs need to revert the awful and unnecessary across the board price cuts that no one asked for

Ork ships were already cheap in comparison to other faction ships and its going to be hard to justify buff to orks when they can field 7+ ships in coparison to the 4-5 of other factions

Secondly can we stop trying to solve everything with upgrades? an upgrade for this, an upgrade for that

do we really want to go back to a time of "mandatory" upgrades?

Lastly i tire of the statement that Zzzaps are "untility weapons", i called caligar out for this statement too when he explained the devs intention behind zzzaps changes, you cannot make something be a unity tool but them make it require 2 mandatory upgrades to function in that role
one or both of the zzzap upgrades need to become an intent trait of zzzaps


Well I try to steer clear of upgrades here, however maximum boost all the time would probably over do it, therefore an optional upgrades works well.
Zzap utility doesn't just come from using zzap, the upgrades provide the utility, zzap is just a standard lance in all other respects.

Cheap Orks ships are currently necessary, they need the numbers advantage to even stay playable. Once Orks are less garbage, price cuts can be reverted!

Restayvien
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Restayvien » 05 September 2016, 12:44

I do wonder how much of this comes down to playstyle and/or fleet composition.

I have always found Orks to be quite OP, except in very specific scenarios. They're very tough, can be very fast, have strong long range and short range abilities, good escorts, cheap ships, a lot of firepower, strong boarding attack/defense, good ordnance, and the ability to pull you closer or push you away which gives them more control over the game.

This was confirmed when I recently built my first Ork fleet, and have consistently stomped on everything with ease except for a couple of Marine fleets.

I have never seen anything to indicate that they were underpowered in general.

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Bludfist
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Bludfist » 05 September 2016, 13:24

Restayvien wrote:I do wonder how much of this comes down to playstyle and/or fleet composition.

I have always found Orks to be quite OP, except in very specific scenarios. They're very tough, can be very fast, have strong long range and short range abilities, good escorts, cheap ships, a lot of firepower, strong boarding attack/defense, good ordnance, and the ability to pull you closer or push you away which gives them more control over the game.

This was confirmed when I recently built my first Ork fleet, and have consistently stomped on everything with ease except for a couple of Marine fleets.

I have never seen anything to indicate that they were underpowered in general.

No

Orks close range with kannons is a joke now, 3K range slow firing weapons which with out armor pen is easily counted armor and brace

Missed or negated shots by armor is extreamly punishing on slow firing weapons

And lotsa gunz is still a unbelievably inconsistent weapon that even with its upgrades can still only put out 3/4 the dps of kannonz (yes lets put rng on the weapons of a faction im sure that will make them competetive :roll:)

Zzzaps have been neutered by the devs since they insist that its a "utility weapon" now, so its back to how it was before as a waste of a kustom point unless you run 2 mandatory upgrades on it

Ork ordinance espically bombers are still a joke and only good for defensive fighter screens

In exchange of their boarding defense the devs tacked on the unnecessary looted ship attribute just to make IN players happy

And prow crits still disproportional hurt orks more than any other faction, why is it that prow crits dont destroy eldar weapons too?

And once again ork ships shouldnt be this cheap, now because of the sheer numbers of ships that they can field now and subsequently the number of torps or novas they can spam out people think orks is fine/strong/op

The faction still as fundamental issues sine release the devs havnt addressed but people dont "see it" becuse of some broken cheese like taunt+trakktor, Zzzzap spam and now ship spam
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Imperator5 » 05 September 2016, 17:49

A: The engine halving is done to the red button giving you engine crits if you take the speed upgrade. Yeah its too much I agree, but it is not a bug.

B: Prow blowups are a serious issue for SM and orks. Why can't they have the eldar prow that does not suffer from it?

C: The armour implementation is another bad board game thing. Armour always should be damage reduction, not negation chance, in every and any and all games. Blame GW.
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby MYNAME? » 05 September 2016, 23:47

Stay clear of upgrades.

Orks need too be more expensive again

Zapp should have passive slow and shield pierce inheretid. But price them accordingly to prevent spam

Give some Ork ships maybe a specialized purpose that can be optional. Have the Light cruisers that the orks have be faster so they can keep shooting enemies in the back and ram them.

I agree with your other points as well. Orks need to become more reliable. They will never be competetive otherwise

Favors need a desperate rework

Give orks more options instead of being a 1 trick pony (this goes back to specializations giving some ork ship things they are better at like all the other races). Orks are not fun to play with an all in fleet tactic where almost all the ork ships are skilled and built the same way

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 06 September 2016, 00:36

MYNAME? wrote:Stay clear of upgrades.

Orks need too be more expensive again

Zapp should have passive slow and shield pierce inheretid. But price them accordingly to prevent spam

Give some Ork ships maybe a specialized purpose that can be optional. Have the Light cruisers that the orks have be faster so they can keep shooting enemies in the back and ram them.

I agree with your other points as well. Orks need to become more reliable. They will never be competetive otherwise

Favors need a desperate rework

Give orks more options instead of being a 1 trick pony (this goes back to specializations giving some ork ship things they are better at like all the other races). Orks are not fun to play with an all in fleet tactic where almost all the ork ships are skilled and built the same way


I agree on all but one, what did you mean to say about zzzaps? Inherited? If that was your thought then by all means no, zzaps should not have shield piercing, that's what made them so cancerous. Default passive slow by all means yes, shield pierce no, even as an upgrade.
At the same time they can have their damage buffed back, with more costly ships and no shield piercing they'd be back where they were, supportive weapon at best.
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Bludfist » 06 September 2016, 02:48

Ahzek Ahriman wrote:
I agree on all but one, what did you mean to say about zzzaps? Inherited? If that was your thought then by all means no, zzaps should not have shield piercing, that's what made them so cancerous. Default passive slow by all means yes, shield pierce no, even as an upgrade.
At the same time they can have their damage buffed back, with more costly ships and no shield piercing they'd be back where they were, supportive weapon at best.


Zzzaps are the slowest firing lance weapons in the game the 2 second snare will do jack all if shields keep regening and mitigating Zzzap shots if shield/ holofield bypass no longer exists

after all its not like lance weapons are hard to deal with, running silent etc.

This will result in ork players having to stack mass Zzzaps again to try and over power shields from a distance to slow targets which will result in qq about Zzzap cancer once again
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Re: Making Orks viable

Postby Ashardalon » 06 September 2016, 03:44

no running silent when the first shot ignores voids and rips your deck off
if voids get ignored by lances it becomes uncounterable
unreliable but uncounterable
i think what Ahzek wants is that the slow effect happens when hitting voids instead of just when hitting hull and the voidpierce is removed, it is what i would like

ps, rangers are bugged now so saying the shokk attack needs a buff because its not as powerful as broken rangers is stupid
rangers are currently gamebreaking, they need to be fixed not other things buffed so they can break the game to
similarly 9k ork gunz? so ork gunz with more range then imperial macros... stupid
+the delay for the boosts helps turning, useful to correct if someone tries to dodge, and useful for the little bit of space you need for an induction coil second ram, sure it makes it worse for dodging but thats not what that boost is for

restayvien pretty much said it, it comes down to playstyle, im playing mostly orks lately and the only fight i dont stand a chance is vs rangerspam eldar, most other fights i win
also how? how are you playing orks that nurgle means a instalose for you? nurgle needs to get close, with fragile chaos ships...
try some new strats then complain about orks
while they definetly still have some issues, none of your suggestions would help

if ork ships become more expensive the price of grot launchas really needs to go down
i have cruisers that are more expensive than battlecruisers

only thing that made sense was the part about the deathdeala being useless, wish i could trade the BC and BS slots in for more C's


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