This game still has serious balance concerns

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Autoxidation
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This game still has serious balance concerns

Postby Autoxidation » 08 July 2016, 05:31

Overall I think balancing through leveling isn't too bad, but once you hit level 8 it's an entirely different experience. Gone are bonus points against fleets with level 10 ships. Hyper focused fleet builds are super common and straight impossible to defeat with some races.

The Imperium is too generalist to deal with specialized builds from any of the other races, save maybe Space Marines. They can't deal with Chaos carrier fleets, Eldar carrier fleets, or really the Orks at all now. Chaos and Eldar carrier fleets are too good against everything. Maybe the devs don't want the game to be balanced and want to give clear advantages to one side on missions (Eldar on assassination or data recovery is a great example), but I don't want to spend time playing missions I have little to no chance of winning. That's not fun.

I want to like this game more, but there are far too many other interesting and more balanced games to play instead of sticking with this. Which is a shame, really. This game as a great aesthetic and has translated the feel of the universe well. Without proper balancing, the end game is frankly in an atrocious state right now and it's going to lose the playerbase and won't be able to retain new players from sales.

I'm not expecting perfect balance here, but there are huge balance issues that haven't been addressed since release. Some fleets are straight up better than others and very difficult to counter for other races.

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Re: This game still has serious balance concerns

Postby MYNAME? » 08 July 2016, 08:59

Chaos Carrier fleets get rekt on the regs. There are so many ways of manipulating their DPS. Its so easy you dont even need fighter screens.... You have running silent, turrets and fighter screens. 3 options. Running silent is a troll feature to waste their ord deployments and reducing whatever damage they could have done to 0. If you play lance dauntless spam with firestorm spam escorts get upgraded turrets and lances you pretty much will win 9/10 vs chaos ord spam. Eldar carrier fleet is hard to beat as imperials I will give you that because they can endless kite without being caught up too. So far meta wise chaos and imperials are the only 2 good races that are actually balanced vs each other. Orks are broken and WiP cant count them Eldar is not too bad anymore as long as they dont cheeze siam hann favor.

JorpA
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Re: This game still has serious balance concerns

Postby JorpA » 08 July 2016, 09:54

Yep chaos carrier fleets are not that hard to counter as a chaos player myself i can safely say that full carrier fleet ain't that strong. Mixed carrier + lance fleet is strongest like in 2v.2 acheron + styx is very powerful but far from unbeatable. Wise and good imperial player can beat the crap out of that combo any day. Before my ships were all lvl 10 i had really hard time some times to beat good IN players. But now that they are lvl 10 games are easy. Chaos is probably worst race when non upgraded or just with few upgrades. Unlike IN which is powerful from the start and loses some Power compared to others when there is more upgrades on ships.

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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: This game still has serious balance concerns

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 08 July 2016, 12:22

Yep, from fighter screens (and not even big required!), through silent running to sticking your ships in tight formation in order to cut down incoming squadrons with fire from several ship defence systems.

Carrier fleets have ridiculous burst damage but it's so unreliable and easily countered that if you don't treat carriers as supports at most (as they should be) you'll get rekt.
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Re: This game still has serious balance concerns

Postby RedDevilCG » 08 July 2016, 16:12

To explain silent running, as soon as you see the bombers launch hit silent running and they will return to their carrier. This completely wastes the cool down, and you can instantly reveal yourself again with AAF; the of bombers won't re-acquire.

Make sure your not in a recon probe though, as it is required that you disappear on the enemy screen. Remember, most chaos ships don't have more detection range than 5k, so you can go silent running pretty safely at 12k.

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CALiGeR190
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Re: This game still has serious balance concerns

Postby CALiGeR190 » 08 July 2016, 16:14

First of I'm going to just say this game will always have 'balance concerns'.
The way the devs go about patching for balance changes and the game mechanics mean it'd be almost impossible to ever get 'perfect' balance (same with most games). With that, however, it could still always be better even if it's never perfect.

Autoxidation wrote:Overall I think balancing through leveling isn't too bad, but once you hit level 8 it's an entirely different experience. Gone are bonus points against fleets with level 10 ships. Hyper focused fleet builds are super common and straight impossible to defeat with some races.

Not entirely true.
They are DIFFICULT to defeat and you have to know EXACTLY what you're doing and know each ships capabilities very accurately.
I have yet to come across a fleet as the Imperium that I haven't been able to find a way to defeat, even if the cost is high in some cases.
I know what you mean though, certain fleets are specifically focused on hard-countering certain races and tactics, but even the most refined builds are never perfect.
Autoxidation wrote:The Imperium is too generalist to deal with specialized builds from any of the other races, save maybe Space Marines. They can't deal with Chaos carrier fleets, Eldar carrier fleets, or really the Orks at all now. Chaos and Eldar carrier fleets are too good against everything. Maybe the devs don't want the game to be balanced and want to give clear advantages to one side on missions (Eldar on assassination or data recovery is a great example), but I don't want to spend time playing missions I have little to no chance of winning. That's not fun.

First half of that I strongly disagree with.
The Imperium can literally counter anything with such a huge arsenal of different ships and upgrades at their disposal.

Carrier fleets aren't really a huge issue if you use swarm tactics, you want as many ships (any size will do) as possible and keep them close together so their defences overlap.
If you're defending, that's an auto win as they'll never be able to break that formation without closing, if you're attacking: against chaos simply rush at them between waves, they aren't that much faster than you with the correct upgrades, you'll easily catch them. vs eldar its more CL and Escort focused, sheer numbers win you those fights since you can block them in with torps and bombs while they get swarmed by Swords and Cobras.

Vs Orks? well anything goes really, as long as it isn't boarding orientated. I've done decently well with ramming fleets as the IN against Orks (ram jousting with Power rams is INSANE FUN). The IN is really what Ork players wish the Orks where if you build them for tanking and brawling. Otherwise, you can always kite them, aside from Zzaps and the Traktor there's nothing they can do about it, and the Imps do way more damage than any Chaos Kiting fleet (excluding carriers, but even then you can make decent IN carrier fleets too).

The individual missions I agree with though, I only play the elite mode now, don't really like any of the mission types beyond cruiser clash: winnable, but tedious, in most cases.
Autoxidation wrote:I want to like this game more, but there are far too many other interesting and more balanced games to play instead of sticking with this. Which is a shame, really. This game as a great aesthetic and has translated the feel of the universe well. Without proper balancing, the end game is frankly in an atrocious state right now and it's going to lose the playerbase and won't be able to retain new players from sales.

Well that's your opinion, you're entitled to it.
Autoxidation wrote:I'm not expecting perfect balance here, but there are huge balance issues that haven't been addressed since release. Some fleets are straight up better than others and very difficult to counter for other races.

Oh, so you do understand Perfect balance cant exist?
I wouldn't say any fleet is better than any other, I've got good performance with the lot of them, all fleets excel in a certain area more so than other; that is true, but no fleet is definitely just 'better' than any other.
It's all a matter of play-styles and builds: how you exploit a certain faction to maximise performance.
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Crnyo
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Re: This game still has serious balance concerns

Postby Crnyo » 08 July 2016, 20:54

CALiGeR190 wrote:Vs Orks? well anything goes really, as long as it isn't boarding orientated. I've done decently well with ramming fleets as the IN against Orks (ram jousting with Power rams is INSANE FUN). The IN is really what Ork players wish the Orks where if you build them for tanking and brawling. Otherwise, you can always kite them, aside from Zzaps and the Traktor there's nothing they can do about it, and the Imps do way more damage than any Chaos Kiting fleet (excluding carriers, but even then you can make decent IN carrier fleets too).

You can counter Zzap fleets? How?

Kiting - countered by Zzap
Ramming - countered by Goff (+ Zzap to keep you in place)
AP brawl - countered by Goff

Since the dawn of Zzaps my winrate with Orks in 1v1 is 100%. This is not to brag - there is nothing to brag about using broken fleet setup - but to point out that balance is out of whack. If Orks don't have exceedingly high global winrate that's because other non-Zzap setups are underpowered and are dragging the score down.
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Ubikuuu
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Re: This game still has serious balance concerns

Postby Ubikuuu » 08 July 2016, 22:19

Yeah Caliger I always read your posts with interest, and you really seem like a smart, reasonable guy, but this smells of BS pretty bad. Really sorry but have to call this out.

No way you can consistenty win vs an equal level Zzap fleet with IN, hell, even if you told me you won a single CC I would have trouble beliving you. Even against a Kannon fleet IN is at a DIRE disadvantage post Ork cost reduction.
And lets hope Orks keep on believing Bonkers is useless... that shit got to be removed before it finds a way in the meta... oops I did it again...

Started recording my Orks gameplay on Twitch, so can prove it anytime.

As for Chaos... THAT is what an efficient, synergetic, generalist fleet looks like.
Mixed Nurgle brawlers, lances and carriers with Slan/Tze eat IN for breakfast.

IN is just subpar at everything.
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JorpA
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Re: This game still has serious balance concerns

Postby JorpA » 09 July 2016, 07:02

IN has one very strong advantage over other races and its the ultra high dmg of all their weapons at pretty much any range. Use this advantage ppl.

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CALiGeR190
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Re: This game still has serious balance concerns

Postby CALiGeR190 » 09 July 2016, 08:17

Crnyo wrote:You can counter Zzap fleets? How?

Kiting - countered by Zzap
Ramming - countered by Goff (+ Zzap to keep you in place)
AP brawl - countered by Goff

Since the dawn of Zzaps my winrate with Orks in 1v1 is 100%. This is not to brag - there is nothing to brag about using broken fleet setup - but to point out that balance is out of whack. If Orks don't have exceedingly high global winrate that's because other non-Zzap setups are underpowered and are dragging the score down.

It can be done.
Isn't easy, but I've got consistant wins vs them: trick is tankyness and speed.
To be perfectly fair I've only ever come across 6 such fleets, I've since stopped playing MP and just play elite, but it generally revolved around breaking them up and focusing them down one by one. Also silent running is really useful once you've broken contact.

I'd physically ram one of them out of position with a speed-modified cruiser (sometimes sacrifice said cruiser) into the guns of waiting BCs and Line ships, and the just repeat that process over and over. High attrition rate on both sides, but the IN comes out on top in most cases if you invested in heavy sheild and hull upgrades.

Another is simply to use Nebula and wait til they get bored and disperse a little. Then I can move in and encircle one or two of his ships in broudsides.
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