The game is not fun to watch?

Talk about Battlefleet Gothic: Armada here!
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HERO
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Re: The game is not fun to watch?

Postby HERO » 08 April 2016, 00:04

Psykmoe wrote:
babypha wrote:
Same goes to Rust and Civilization V.

Do you guys think the current BFGA is fun enough to watch? If not, what can be improved?



Well, since we're comparing Rust and Civ V, I guess one obvious solution would be to completely change the genre to something more attractive for the viewer. If only Civ V had been a first person....4X game?

Edit:

Oh my god, suddenly a 3 page post, half of which is quoting a TacCog argument. TC threads are leaking.


Did you read my post?

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Re: The game is not fun to watch?

Postby Psykmoe » 08 April 2016, 00:12

HERO wrote:
Did you read my post?


I did, twice! It was pretty insightful, but it was kind of easy to miss the sentence in which streaming services are actually mentioned at all (unless online concurrency is a related term, I didn't understand that one) so I didn't initially think the signal to noise ratio (strictly in regards to the question in the original post) was entirely ideal.

Still, I guess I'll take your word for it since I've seen you post insightfully where-as I didn't know the original poster from any other internet stranger.

On another note, what's your professional opinion on Star Craft 2 multiplayer? I've never played SC 2 myself but I was frankly surprised to hear it when Blizzard stated how few of their players actually play multiplayer. Maybe I had left-over preconceived notions because the first Star Craft was so popular.

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Re: The game is not fun to watch?

Postby Lucifronsun » 08 April 2016, 00:17

I think a good idea would be to implement something of a spectate system, where people can watch the game after its completed. I say after it's completed because stream sniping is a real thing and these matches are about 5 minutes long on average.

They'd get to watch the game in its full glory without UI taking up the screen, and without seeing the tac cog. Meanwhile someone can stream it while casting and commenting.

Or if someone wants to stream the good old fashioned way, maybe there's a way to integrate a streaming client into it, where people would get to watch the battle from a higher perspective than what is actually shown on the screen.

I of course have no idea how viable these suggestions are and I'm just spitballing.

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HERO
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Re: The game is not fun to watch?

Postby HERO » 08 April 2016, 00:51

Psykmoe wrote:
HERO wrote:
Did you read my post?


I did, twice! It was pretty insightful, but it was kind of easy to miss the sentence in which streaming services are actually mentioned at all (unless online concurrency is a related term, I didn't understand that one) so I didn't initially think the signal to noise ratio (strictly in regards to the question in the original post) was entirely ideal.

Still, I guess I'll take your word for it since I've seen you post insightfully where-as I didn't know the original poster from any other internet stranger.

On another note, what's your professional opinion on Star Craft 2 multiplayer? I've never played SC 2 myself but I was frankly surprised to hear it when Blizzard stated how few of their players actually play multiplayer. Maybe I had left-over preconceived notions because the first Star Craft was so popular.


It's true that only a fraction of the players who play StarCraft compete in multiplayer. However, the large majority of the crowds that gather for eSports events are surprisingly both competitive and casual, almost a mix of 50/50. These are on-site events, but for the viewers at home, the large majority of these viewers are actually casual, and don't play the MP at all, or are in the lower echlons of the ladder.

Like I said before, they are more interested in being entertained, the same way we watch our professional athletes on the big screen at home for football, baseball, tennis, what have you.

At the end of the day, we must ask ourselves why we are watching those sports? Is it the social aspect? Enjoying high-level play? Enjoying the atmosphere of the venue? Perhaps it's the vibrant community? It's a mix of all of these things really. The one thing to take away from all this is that regardless of anything else, the games I listed in the previous post are successful because they are competitive.

BFG can get there, it really can, but it will need a radical change in design direction. However, it is a niche genre to begin with (Scifi, 40K, Naval) compared to something more relateable (cars + soccer = Rocket League), and the fact that some non-competitive aspects still find purchase in multiplayer (persistent death, lol, try playing in a tournament with this, Tac Cog, and the fact the game is not as skill intensive as some of the higher games I've mentioned). There is also no ladder, or way for the top players of this game to stand out among the rest (Global Elite, GM, Diamond..etc), because that was not the design goal from the ground up.

This game, however, was not designed to be a competitive eSport from the ground up. This is why I don't think the online concurrency will last unfortunately. Hopefully, there will be modding opportunities, because that's pretty much the only saving grace, but unfortunately, while modding makes the game possibly more fun and breathes life in the community, it also artificially divides it (example: what do you mean I have to download Elite Mod?!).

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Kine²
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Re: The game is not fun to watch?

Postby Kine² » 08 April 2016, 01:03

babypha wrote:Sorry for the provocative title, but I thought this was really an important matter to think about.

As you all probably know already, a game's viewership number in twitch is one of the most accurate and reliable source to track the game's popularity. There could be some exceptions, but average viewer count on twitch is usually a huge factor to the game's future success, or to measure one at the moment.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_b ... o_games#PC

http://www.businessinsider.my/the-11-to ... -2015-8/7/


twitch is usually a huge factor to the game's future success, or to measure one at the moment.


Official numbers says otherwise.


*also - interesting to note Civ V is on that list while Rust isn't .... ?
Rust owners are estimated at 3,66 million ... Civ V at 6-7

The Sims .... you'd need to pay me to watch that.


---

There was a time when people were discussing about designing spectator friendly games and why it was needed. But that debate centered around growing e-sports into mainstream. Very few people confused it with sales correlation. Nowadays, if a studio thinks their game needs a competitive scene to extend shelf life, or is at the core of the gameplay then it will need to think real hard on being good as a spectator sport.

Then another segment popped up out of nowhere ... these episodic casual game channels carried by strong personalities ... I dont even know what to classify them as coz I'm not in the industry of knowing such things. But they're the ones who's changed the landscape. Youtubers. This one is more of a Chicken or Egg scenario.

Yes - a great youtube viewerbase can drive sales. But the argument is .. additional sales.
The biggest first batch of youtubers in fact came about from games that already did well already on sales ie. the game sold well independently, has huge playerbase numbers so people who made content for that popular games got popular themselves.

Budding youtubers on the other hand believe it to be the other way around.

People who actually make money off youtube understands the reality. They bandwagon games that are already doing well. You cannot create a viewer base on your own easily. You bandwagon a game's player base where publishers spent marketing dollars. Doing so however can drive up additional sales for the game but that is it.

Twitch numbers do mirror how popular a game is (normally)
But those games didn't necessarily got popular because of twitch.
There were pre-existing interest on those games in the first place.
Twitch echoes that interest not create it.

twitch is usually a huge factor to the game's future success, or to measure one at the moment.


Only the latter half of that sentence is true (with non competitive games)

....

That said - it never hurts to make a game interesting to watch on video.
and BFG:A is just not popcorn material for mainstream.

Mainly because the game develops too slowly.
There is no build up, no climax.
The pace is steadily slow.
Where interesting matches cannot be easily identified by those who don't play.

not sure how to fix that.

not sure if it needs fixing.
no victory without war New Game Mode Suggestion

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Re: The game is not fun to watch?

Postby Candor » 08 April 2016, 01:32

In addition to +1ing Kine's points, I'd like to point out more reasons besides "A lack of competitiveness" that is causing a lack of content production

1) The game isn't finished. Most people are going to want to run XCOM style lets plays of the campaign, which (hopefully) is going to be more drenched in lore and is going to have more interesting scenarios; which is what is really going to get them views. Review-style content and first impressions vids are going to be slow for the same reason. Several large youtube channels have already done videos on the game, but it's generally teaser content because they don't want to risk burnout

2) Currently, a lot of missions play out the same sort of way; we don't have the full range of modes, factions or scenarios that'll add full variety to the average streaming session

3) If you're going to do the more common "chat show" style of entertainment stream, it really doesn't matter what you play, so why play an unfinished niche title?
"Our country will, I believe, sooner forgive an officer for attacking an enemy than for letting it alone."

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Re: The game is not fun to watch?

Postby Navinor » 08 April 2016, 02:33

1. It matters not if a game is complicated or not when it comes down to watchers.

There are two examples out there: Europa Universalis iV and the upcoming Hearts of Iron IV. These games are VERY complex.

Normally this kind of games should have no chance on the global player market, especially not on the youtube/twitch market because on the first sight they have no great graphics, no "pew pew" action and no gamplay which would attract the younger audience.

But still they have an audience of half a million people watching the stream constantly.

Why is that so? Because most people who were gamers back then, still remain gamers till today. They just grew up.

I grew up with strategy games too. From "Command and Conquer" 1995, Starcraft 1, Dark Reign (1997) till today i have played nearly all strategy games which were out there.

And i still like to play strategy games. Europa Univ. and Hearts of Iron shows us, strategy games are not dead and they will survive!

(And they are made for an older audience)



So why there was a decline in sells when it comes to strategy games back then in 2008 till 2015 ?

Because of the so called "Consolisation" To reduce costs game developing companies shifted all their effort (and marketing) on the consoles like Xbox and Playstation.


You see it nowadays, nearly all adventure and ego shooter titles for PC are a rip off from consoles.

But this does NOT work for strategy games! There are nearly no strategy games for consoles, because it is hard to play them with a joystick.

(Some titles were just butchered by bad decisions like "Command and Conquer")


The other aspect is: Younger people does not grow up with strategy games. They are growing up with Mobas, with twitch and youtube.

But even the "classic" moba is being slowly replaced. There is a new wave of games of "Ego Shooter Mobas". And the older Moba audience does not like this!

In most mobas there are not even "kids" anymore who are playing against each other. The most players are at the age of between 18 and 25 right now!

(Talking about the "kids" contributing to the toxicity in the moba games while at the same time the average playerbase aren´t kids anymore)

And it is this audience from 18-25 who are watching mostly youtube and twitch streams.

They will likely watch a Battlefleet Gothic Armada stream, because it is a strategy game which is considered "old".

And old strategy veterans like me would ONLY watch a stream to get better in this game. But not for fun!

Most of my generation is just not used to watch twitch streams or youtube streams.

Right at the moment i am painting my new "Age of Sigmar" Army and building up a Space Wolves army in the TT.

(So i am not playing BFGA 24/7)


+ The truth is. Neither me nor the newer generation wants to compete against hardcore pro players from the strategy sector!

This is the reason why SC 2 is dieing out! And i will not watch a stream were people playing a game which consists only of hardcore players who have allready more than 50k games under their belt! (SC 2)


And last but not least it is the psychological effect:

Kids are driven by emotion. If they get positive emotion in a game, they will invest more time into it, will win more games become the "pro" and so on.

If they get negative emotions they will drop the game immediatly. Being butchered by strategy games veterans in matches all day long is such a case! So they will not start with strategy games!


Adult people like me need a reason to invest part of my lifetime into a game. Furthermore they need a game where they can compete against another people and at least can win 50% of their matches.

Right now i have no reason to invest 3 hours of a day into BFGA because:

1. I do not want to be a pro player

2. I can not catch up to the skill of a former strategy pro anymore in a short time.

And even when. Why should i ?

3. BFGA will not have mod support because of Games Workshop. This company is VERY VERY protective of its licensce and when Tindalos want to sell DLCs, mod support likely will not be allowed!

4. My win chances against former pro´s will not be even 50%

So in the end i will play this game for fun. Paint my miniatures but will NOT watch BFGA streams, because i have no intention of becoming a pro player in this game! (And i have no time for it!)

Slywyn
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Re: The game is not fun to watch?

Postby Slywyn » 08 April 2016, 03:09

Honestly Twitch viewership is largely unimportant in the long run for a game. Some games enjoy huge viewership numbers(League, Hearthstone, Minecraft), but usually those games are successful on their own merits, not because they're viewed often on Twitch.

Fallout 4, one of the games you mentioned in your post, is among the most successful RPGs of all time- and yet almost nobody watches it on Twitch. Skyrim, almost nobody watched/watches it on Twitch.

In the long run, while Twitch viewership is nice and can help smaller games get bigger, for a game like BFGA where the playerbase is going to be(relatively) small, but loyal and driven to play and enjoy the game, Twitch will barely matter.

Look at a game like World of Warships, or World of Tanks. Competitively-driven games with hundreds of thousands of concurrent players, but you're lucky to find more than 2,000 people watching the games at any one point.

In the end, it really just doesn't matter that much.

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HERO
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Re: The game is not fun to watch?

Postby HERO » 08 April 2016, 04:00

Besides, this game was not built to be a Spectator sport in mind, and due to the niche target, it's not going to be viewed widely on stream.

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Re: The game is not fun to watch?

Postby BrianDavion » 08 April 2016, 04:17

I suspect that the guy who said most of the video popularity of this game will be from let's plays of the single player campaign are 100% right. Warhammer 40k has a HUUUUUUUGE following a following whose gonna be more intreasted in the campaign then e-peen sports.


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