Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Talk about Battlefleet Gothic: Armada here!

Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Poll ended at 29 April 2016, 21:25

Necrons
221
26%
Taus (forge world + GW + kroots + demiurg)
260
30%
Tyranids
232
27%
Adeptus Mechanicus
57
7%
Rogue traders
29
3%
Dark Eldars
39
5%
Eldar craftworlds
23
3%
 
Total votes: 861
Melcyna
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Re: Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Postby Melcyna » 01 May 2016, 05:47

BrianDavion wrote:
Melcyna wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
except they're not suits in the same manner as power armor. I woulda thought that would be obvious from anyone taking a look at a firewarrior compared to a riptide. and yet again, we're talking aestetics. not control type. the "suits" (and hey gundam refers to their mecha as suits too for some reason unfathomable to me) look very anime.

and that's intended. it's pretty widely known that the Tau where created in an attempt to crack into the asian market


And i don't doubt or contest that they probably designed it to be more marketable in the eastern side...

but we can't use the term 'mecha' for it because there's an actual defined meaning for that term that covers both western and eastern style for it.

and power armor don't qualify as a mecha, and battlesuits ARE power armor (that can jump), they WEAR them... and control them pretty much as their own limb. They are not piloting it as much as the suits are simply an extension of themselves.

Think of the power fist for example, or the Terminators or the Starcarft2 marines suit which has an arm that is not exactly a glove over the user's own arm (because that'd be PROPORTIONALLY VERY ODD and FUNNY since their head is tiny compared to the rest of the limbs if that was the case), but the suit is controlled very much like an extension of himself.


ok first of all I know what Mecha is. if my name didn't clue you in, I play battletech.

incidently yes space marine armor IS worn like a suit, yeah the proportions are funny, but the ghames always been like that (Cadians have over sized hands for example) they're more like a dreadknight then a suit of space marine power armor.
and yet again you're missing the point, the point is they LOOK like anime mecha.

The Davions and Steiners both can burn in gu**CENSORED**

err were was I?

"and yet again you're missing the point, the point is they LOOK like anime mecha"
the point i've been trying to convey is that DON'T CALL them mecha because they are not, and what they look like have practically no effect.

you don't call the Dreadnoughts as Titans for example, but if you ask someone not familiar with the lore they'd think it'll qualify if they don't see the scale... and if look is all that matters then heck, most terms available would be freely interchangeable because let's face it... most things in 40K share very similar aesthetic among each family...

Wraith Guards... Wraith Lords... Predator... BaneBlade...

but we know each is a term that is NOT interchangeable regardless of how they look

we don't get to define it in our own definition just because we think they look similar... and in the same way, the term 'mecha' is already defined whether we like it or not... and unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) power armor and other form of worn powered exoskeleton suits don't qualify for it, and that definition doesn't care if the suit is from east or west...

incidentally, if you are curious why Gundam used the term Mobile Suits:

hint: Heinlein's Starship Trooper
probably the first sci fi description and usage in literature of power armor suit.

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Thedrik
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Re: Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Postby Thedrik » 01 May 2016, 06:03

Wouldn't the KX-139 Ta'Unar Supremacy Armour qualify as mecha.

Image

Melcyna
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Re: Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Postby Melcyna » 01 May 2016, 06:39

Thedrik wrote:Wouldn't the KX-139 Ta'Unar Supremacy Armour qualify as mecha.

yes, they probably can... (though calling them mecha for anything in the similar class, be it Titan or Gargantz, etc... in our local tabletop store tend to get you weird looks from ppl who seems to think that the term mecha only apply to japanese stuff)

and i can definitely concede there for it qualify as one, so long as it's not one of the battlesuits, which definitely isn't one.

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Deuzerre
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Re: Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Postby Deuzerre » 01 May 2016, 11:42

Melcyna wrote:
Thedrik wrote:Wouldn't the KX-139 Ta'Unar Supremacy Armour qualify as mecha.

yes, they probably can... (though calling them mecha for anything in the similar class, be it Titan or Gargantz, etc... in our local tabletop store tend to get you weird looks from ppl who seems to think that the term mecha only apply to japanese stuff)

and i can definitely concede there for it qualify as one, so long as it's not one of the battlesuits, which definitely isn't one.

Their battlesuits go for the term mecha, but really not in the class of titans.
They're still twice the size of a spache mureen.

A mecha can, by definition, range from appleseed's suits to... Infinite sizes, pretty much.
"Common sense isn't as common as the name would imply"

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Re: Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Postby Melcyna » 01 May 2016, 13:15

Deuzerre wrote:
Melcyna wrote:
Thedrik wrote:Wouldn't the KX-139 Ta'Unar Supremacy Armour qualify as mecha.

yes, they probably can... (though calling them mecha for anything in the similar class, be it Titan or Gargantz, etc... in our local tabletop store tend to get you weird looks from ppl who seems to think that the term mecha only apply to japanese stuff)

and i can definitely concede there for it qualify as one, so long as it's not one of the battlesuits, which definitely isn't one.

Their battlesuits go for the term mecha, but really not in the class of titans.
They're still twice the size of a spache mureen.

A mecha can, by definition, range from appleseed's suits to... Infinite sizes, pretty much.


It's not really the size that defines them, so much as their function and usage.

if the user is wearing it... and the suit basically works as a literal extension of his own body and movement, which is basically what power armors are... then it's not generally considered a mecha (so simply super sizing power armors, doesn't mean it becomes a mecha just because it's larger)

a mecha would be something piloted, rather than worn by the user, and well the battlesuits are very much the later case. There are examples where the lines are blurred (Gunbuster or Pacific Rim for western audience that never seen eastern works), but taking Heinlein's Starship Trooper's mobile infantry as an example of what a power armor is (since it's probably the 1st appearance of fully fleshed out power armor concept in scifi):
Our suits give us better eyes, better ears, stronger backs (to carry heavier weapons and more ammo), better legs, more intelligence (in the military meaning...), more firepower, greater endurance, less vulnerability.
A suit isn't a space suit - although it can serve as one. it is not primarily armor - although the Knights of the Round Table were not armored as well as we are. It isn't a tank - but a single M.I. [Mobile Infantry] private could take on a squadron of those things and knock them off unassisted...

...Suited up, you look like a big steel gorilla, armed with gorilla-sized weapons.

The real genius in the design is that you don't have to control the suit; you just wear it, like your clothes, like skin.

From Starship Troopers, by Robert Heinlein.
Published by G.P. Putnam's Sons in 1959

and this basically describes Battlesuits to the T, a power armor (battlesuits) worn by the soldier to amplify their capability that can be controlled as naturally as their own movement, which is distinct from mecha and we don't consider power armor as a mecha.

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Thedrik
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Re: Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Postby Thedrik » 01 May 2016, 19:38

Delling wrote:Interesting reasoning about what a Mecha is. General consensus, however, is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecha

By the way, Warhammer 40k is built upon non-original content. The point here is not to determine if Tau's are mecha or not.
The point is their background is not amalgamated in the whole as skillfully as it was done with other races.

Integrating "space elves" was quite an harder task in my opinion, and yet they managed to do it far better than they did with the Tau.


So I wasn't imagining that it had a broader term than just large piloted robots but wasn't sure so didn't want to argue.

P.S. He posted this in the wrong thread so I figured I would just quote it here.

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Re: Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Postby Melcyna » 02 May 2016, 10:55

And he has a point, GW's implementation of Tau hasn't exactly been... well... smooth

i mean we still remembered what happened a while back when ppl were saying that 'The Greater Good was TOO GOOD to exist in 40K'
and GW in a knee jerk fashion then introduce the not so subtle parts in the subsequent materials just to make them darker and edgier with the way Ethereal is supposed to work.

and yet... ironically... the Tau is the 1st race in 40K to have a power armor that actually worked the way a power armor was supposed to be in the original interpretation of sci fi power armor, as well as vehicles and starship that conform to the archetypical scifi standard.

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BrianDavion
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Re: Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Postby BrianDavion » 03 May 2016, 11:17

Melcyna wrote:and yet... ironically... the Tau is the 1st race in 40K to have a power armor that actually worked the way a power armor was supposed to be in the original interpretation of sci fi power armor, as well as vehicles and starship that conform to the archetypical scifi standard.


ummm no.. space marine armor works pretty well exactly as described in SST which was the first example we have of power armor.

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Re: Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Postby Melcyna » 03 May 2016, 11:42

BrianDavion wrote:
Melcyna wrote:and yet... ironically... the Tau is the 1st race in 40K to have a power armor that actually worked the way a power armor was supposed to be in the original interpretation of sci fi power armor, as well as vehicles and starship that conform to the archetypical scifi standard.


ummm no.. space marine armor works pretty well exactly as described in SST which was the first example we have of power armor.


Minus the jumping capability, which is central to the MI

but perhaps the biggest difference is the way space marines use their power armor...

the power armor as defined in MI of Starship Trooper is closer to the Tau's version since they are essentially mobile firepower in a condensed package. A walking, jumping mass of heavy artillery with enough armor and avionics to ensure they live through the process and hit their target and obliterate it.

whereas super human strength aside, the space marine usage of power armor particularly their idea of melee... is... well.. pretty much off the wazoo.

I am pretty sure it was a coincidence that the Tau got a mechanic that closely resemble the MI, but well they were called Mobile Infantry for a good reason, and not just because of the their orbital drop capability.

And of course if you take a look at the various Powered Armor suits the MI have:
Marauder Suit
The Marauder Suit is the basic Powered Armor used by the Mobile Infantry. Each armored suit is customized to fit each individual. The Armor is designed to give a trooper many times more strength, to let them jump over buildings at ease, and to deflect enemy fire.

Scout Suit
The Scout Suit is a lightly armored variant of Powered Armor which is able to jump and travel faster than regular Powered Armor, for use in recon missions.

Command Suit
The Command Suit is a more powerful variant of Powered Armor, meant to be used by officers. The main difference in Command Armor to that of Marauder Armor is that Command Armor has much more communications equipment, and controls much more jump power and "juice" than the Marauder Armor.


sounds familiar??? yeah.. their ability isn't exactly the same as the Tau version... but... you get the idea.

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BrianDavion
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Re: Which Faction would you like to see the most in Battlefleet Gothic?

Postby BrianDavion » 03 May 2016, 19:36

except the GTau don't wear their suits the same way (seriously look at the size of a firewarrior vs a crisis suit) I'm not sure how the hell Tau "wear" their power armor but it's sure as heck not "basicly a suit of plate armor with power additions" yes it has built in weapons but that's not quite the same thing. it's just shoulder mounted rockets basicly.


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