Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Talk about Battlefleet Gothic: Armada here!
StarSauron
(Former) Technical Tester
Posts: 192
Joined: 26 October 2015, 06:24
Contact:

Re: Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Postby StarSauron » 27 June 2016, 20:04

Its just somehow pointless to fight Chaos if you can never defeat it.

Well if there are other physics, maybe than make weapons for that physics ?
I mean really, Humanity know Warp for so many centuries and didn't even studies that stuff properly.

Besides how hard can that be ?
The only reason Empire lose fights, all the time is just because Chaos does make hit and run attacks,
where they want and when they want. And even there where Chaos has a big tactical advantage ,
really they actually manage to fight them back.


Chaos marines actually confirm that people can survive in Warp for long.
Chaos Gods do actually fight sv each other, how ? I mean there are for sure some kind of weapons.
Besides by all 4 or 5 mayor gods of Chaos there is only 1 that you need to take down, its Khorne.



The only reason why other factions didn't invade Warp seems because they are coward like Eldar.
Or just don't have intelligence like Orks or Tyranids.


So people have for sure weapons that can harm demons in warp.
People can orientate in warp.
People get mad ? Em I am pretty sure some Robots would be a reliable force.

Halstead
Posts: 212
Joined: 23 April 2016, 22:20
Contact:

Re: Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Postby Halstead » 27 June 2016, 20:11

StarSauron wrote:Its just somehow pointless to fight Chaos if you can never defeat it.

Well if there are other physics, maybe than make weapons for that physics ?
I mean really, Humanity know Warp for so many centuries and didn't even studies that stuff properly.

Besides how hard can that be ?
The only reason Empire lose fights, all the time is just because Chaos does make hit and run attacks,
where they want and when they want. And even there where Chaos has a big tactical advantage ,
really they actually manage to fight them back.


Chaos marines actually confirm that people can survive in Warp for long.
Chaos Gods do actually fight sv each other, how ? I mean there are for sure some kind of weapons.
Besides by all 4 or 5 mayor gods of Chaos there is only 1 that you need to take down, its Khorne.



The only reason why other factions didn't invade Warp seems because they are coward like Eldar.
Or just don't have intelligence like Orks or Tyranids.


So people have for sure weapons that can harm demons in warp.
People can orientate in warp.
People get mad ? Em I am pretty sure some Robots would be a reliable force.
Warp do warp you. Chaos Marines are...twisted.
Robots? Imperium have an utter hatred for all things that reek of "sentient" AI or 'droids'. If they discover a human world that has just AI on that level, they will wipe out said world to prevent contamination.

User avatar
CALiGeR190
Community Moderator
Posts: 1202
Joined: 27 October 2015, 19:03
Location: Manchester, England
Contact:

Re: Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Postby CALiGeR190 » 27 June 2016, 20:25

StarSauron wrote:Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Well you can travel in Warp as Empire and Chaos gods do live in warp.
Empire has Milliards of Soldiers, Millions of Tanks and Mechs and thousands of Battleships.
So why not simply go to warp and nuke them ?

Several reasons.

The warps very nature prohibits any kind of organised offensive for one.

Chaos itself is an ever growing, ever changing, entity which technically has no physical substance or location. It's like trying to destroy Gravity.

The Imperiums own forces would most likely be destroyed by mere contact with warp energy. That or they become the very things they are trying to destroy.

And various other reasons to do with Imperial divisions, heavily defended entrances into the warp, the fact that there are only so many ships that can be translated into the warp which will all appear in totally different locations and time periods with almost no way of navigating and finally GW plot armour.

That's still just scratching the surface.
The best thing you can do to Chaos is put a lid on it and do nothing to cause its release or continue its expantion.
Chaos is not so easily destroyed. It can barely be contained.
It's just a fact of life in the 40K universe: Chaos will always be there to fuck someone up.
Where's your Federation now?
-Imperial Navy

Alpha Tester - Getting the game on its feet
Technical Tester - We had to get the balance right somehow
Community Moderator - Purging spammers and maintaining the realm
BFG Wiki Founding Member

User avatar
Scorch715
Posts: 128
Joined: 04 May 2016, 09:10
Contact:

Re: Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Postby Scorch715 » 27 June 2016, 20:44

StarSauron wrote:Its just somehow pointless to fight Chaos if you can never defeat it.

Well if there are other physics, maybe than make weapons for that physics ?
I mean really, Humanity know Warp for so many centuries and didn't even studies that stuff properly.

Besides how hard can that be ?
The only reason Empire lose fights, all the time is just because Chaos does make hit and run attacks,
where they want and when they want. And even there where Chaos has a big tactical advantage ,
really they actually manage to fight them back.


Chaos marines actually confirm that people can survive in Warp for long.
Chaos Gods do actually fight sv each other, how ? I mean there are for sure some kind of weapons.
Besides by all 4 or 5 mayor gods of Chaos there is only 1 that you need to take down, its Khorne.



The only reason why other factions didn't invade Warp seems because they are coward like Eldar.
Or just don't have intelligence like Orks or Tyranids.


So people have for sure weapons that can harm demons in warp.
People can orientate in warp.
People get mad ? Em I am pretty sure some Robots would be a reliable force.


I'm assuming you know little to nothing about 40k?

A few quick facts then: The Imperium is a very backwards place. In general, its knowledge diminishes with time because everything is so devoted to survival that there simply isn't the capacity to support forward thinking and new research. Also,studying something like the warp would be suicidal because by its very nature it CAN'T be understood (and to attempt to is heresy and therefore you would receive a bolt to the head)

Chaos don't just make hit-and-run attacks. They launch massive Black Crusades that take basically massive resources to hold back and fend off. This game is set during the 12th Black Crusade. The current and technically ongoing one in 40k is the 13th, where Chaos have launched an even bigger campaign.

Chaos Space Marines are not a evidence people can survive in the warp for long periods of time. They're corrupted and twisted by their time in the warp, and a good many of them are insane (Khorne Berzerkers for instance).

You can't take down the Chaos gods in any case. They are manifestations of emotions and human traits. Combined with the fact that there is essentially a daemon for every emotion ever felt by every being to ever exist, its not cowardice that stops an invasion, its common sense.

Yes there are weapons that can harm daemons, but given that they just banish them back to the warp they are far less effective within the warp. Only navigators and very powerful psykers can orientate themselves within the warp, thats why they pilot the ships through warpspace.

Finally, robots. Really, REALLY, bad idea. Last time humanity made sentient robots they rebelled and also wiped us out, hence the ban on them for the past 15000 years. So that leaves you with servitors and other admech robots, which are all pretty stupid and require organic components and frequent command prompts. In general, they're dumber than a modern game AI

User avatar
Cryhavok
Posts: 292
Joined: 03 June 2016, 16:02
Contact:

Re: Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Postby Cryhavok » 27 June 2016, 21:05

Speaking specifically about ship combat in the warp:

When imperial vessels travel through the warp they envelope their ships in a protective bubble called a gellar field. This field basically keeps not only the raw warp energies from consuming the ship and it's occupants, but also holds back the denizens born and living within those energies, deamons and other such creatures.

Were that protecting bubble to be removed, because it was damaged, the ship would almost be guaranteed to be instantly destroyed. Imagine a submarine losing it's hull. Imagine a submarine that's hull disappeared while it was going through an infinite swarm of pirahna in an acid ocean. It would go badly for the crew.

It is all the emperor can do to guide ships in the warp, he would be unable to protect them as well.

How chaos gets by is that they make pacts with the chaos gods, with demons, and use sorcerors to not only guide their ships but also protect them. The imperium can not do any of those things without basically falling and joining chaos. Think of the material plane, the normal galaxy, as the imperium's home field, and the warp as chaos's.

The eldar get by by not using warp travel at all. They built the webway which tunnels through the warp in a way that those inside it never touch the warp and the creatures of the warp can't get into it. The eldar rightly fear the warp, and never willingly enter it.

The Orks use a version of the gellar field that is based on Ork technology. Between that and the differences between how Ork and human psychic powers work and interact with the warp, the Orks are actually very well insulated from the effects of the warp. However,, even if the denizens of the warp did get on an ork ship, they would probably think it was good fun.

---------------

As far as troops go, the imperium of man out numbers the forces of chaos on the material plane, that is true. That is why they can force the black crusades back at all. In the warp though, the forces of chaos do not have limits. They are endless. Only two groups in warhammer 40k have the potential to end the threat of chaos from the immaterium. The first is the Necrons. They have, in millenia past, proven willing and able to cleanse the galaxy of life. Without emotions psychicly feeding the warp, and without mortal worship, chaos whithers and dies. The second group that could manage it is the tyranid, who not only have the ability to psychically overwhelm and shadow the warp blockign it from the material plane, but seek to consume all biological matter to fuel their endless onslaught. Both methods involve leaving the galaxy devoid of life.

The Imperium of Man can not permanently destroy chaos because it is not willing to leave the galaxy devoid of life, and as long as the galaxy has life, chaos will remain. They can only try to hold it back.
Do you hear the voices too?!?

User avatar
McNash
Posts: 191
Joined: 24 March 2016, 00:50
Contact:

Re: Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Postby McNash » 28 June 2016, 17:17

Fluffwise every single thing listed in the book has been tried:

-Use robots, Dark Age of Technology humans tried it, they became self-aware and rebelled or even turned to Chaos.
-Use Chaos against Chaos, didn't work and people got turned to Chaos or worse, the Cabal, the Relictor chapter, inquisitor Quixos, too many examples to cite here.
-Kill the gods by making no one believe in them, the Emperor tried it, that made everyone easier to corrupt.
-Wipe out all life on the galaxy so there is no more warp, a shard of the Night Bringer tried, life always found a way back.
-Promote prosperity and happiness, the eldars did it and you got Slaanesh, second attempt, Great Crusade, didn't work.
-Go to sleep and hope it passes, necrons tried it, didn't work.
-Make anti-warp race, aka blanks, they are hated and ostracized for having a negative aura, literally.
-Make anti-chaos supersoldiers, aka Grey Knights, sadly the process is excruciatingly expensive and hard to make.
-Flee somewhere else and wait to see what happens, the aliens who built the Pharos tried, still waiting.
-Destroy time itself, a Maynark necron cryptek tried it, got caught and put back in place by his superiors after some torture.
-Build anti-warp generators, well, the necrons got it but it seems it's too hard to make them even for a 60 million year old race of post-biological beings who got some help from physical gods.

So yeah, Chaos is not a thing you defeat, merely fight off indefinitely.
Last edited by McNash on 29 June 2016, 02:04, edited 2 times in total.
Image

User avatar
Deyric
Posts: 21
Joined: 28 April 2016, 02:58
Contact:

Re: Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Postby Deyric » 29 June 2016, 01:32

StarSauron wrote:Its just somehow pointless to fight Chaos if you can never defeat it..


Kind of the whole point of the setting.

Again the Warp/immaterium is chaos. It is infinite, not just existing in this galaxy but all across the universe. They need the empire, living beings to come to the materium, which is the only reason it just doesn't wipe everything out already.

Really the only way to defeat Chaos which depends on the emotions and feeling of the materium to form, is to snuff out all life in the materium.
What is your Duty? To serve Emperor’s Will.
What is Emperor’s Will? That we fight and die.
What is Death? It is our duty.
What is your Duty? …

Levandor
Posts: 66
Joined: 09 April 2016, 21:25
Contact:

Re: Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Postby Levandor » 29 June 2016, 12:50

Actually Chaos is much easier to "defeat"

Lots and lots and lots of spoilers ahead, if you plan on reading the heresy novels, dont read on!











Basicaly, the whole mess we have is the Emphras fault for beeing a moron,

First, the emphra himself traveled to a certain planet, about the year 2K,
(molech for those interested)
there he found a gateway into the warp itself, he went there and stole the power of the chaos gods.

That pissed them off quite a bit,

so he learned about the gods, and used their power to split his soul and create the primarchs.

After he was thinking "Well well, they are called chaos "GODS" so, uhm, lets forbid any and each religion
to starve them to death! No Religion, no gods after all!"

Thats where he went wrong as hell, the chaos gods dont thrive on religion, they gain power by deeds linked to their domain,

a lot of war, Khorne grows, a lot of plague and death, nurgle grows and so one...

later the Emphra in another stroke of genius, he considered: "Lets forbid ANY use of psykers! So nobody will EVER learn
about the gods and the fact that i pissed them of to no avail!"

So basicaly, he did everything WRONG he could do wrong, if he had simply said:

"Look chaps! There are these beeings of pure evil and malice, wanting to F everything in the A, but they DIE
if you stop messing about!"

Things would have been entirely different.

But basicaly the Emphra messed up, by keeping the gods a secret, so people feeding them without knowing it....

aprg
Posts: 150
Joined: 20 March 2016, 23:26
Contact:

Re: Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Postby aprg » 29 June 2016, 13:05

Scorch715 wrote:A few quick facts then: The Imperium is a very backwards place. In general, its knowledge diminishes with time because everything is so devoted to survival that there simply isn't the capacity to support forward thinking and new research. Also,studying something like the warp would be suicidal because by its very nature it CAN'T be understood (and to attempt to is heresy and therefore you would receive a bolt to the head)


Heck, any "forward-thinking" and new research in general is considered heresy.

Halstead
Posts: 212
Joined: 23 April 2016, 22:20
Contact:

Re: Lore Question, why can't Empire just go to Warp and finish off Chaos?

Postby Halstead » 29 June 2016, 18:28

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG7VvMGw6w0
Well this explain the realm of chaos better than anything.


Return to “General Gameplay Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 3 guests

cron