Orks back to one trick OP pony status? serious butthurt facepalm WTF thread :D

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Taurusbully
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Re: Orks back to one trick OP pony status? serious butthurt facepalm WTF thread :D

Postby Taurusbully » 24 June 2016, 21:44

Crnyo wrote:
Zeblasky wrote:BTW, Tzeench Chaos fleet is very good against Zzaps, unless they tag your ship with a Beacon(but, considering, that 50% damage is done to the hull, they bring shields down quite slowly, so this is not such a big threat). If they can't see you, they can't kill you, and you can kite as long as you want. In 1v1 they can be beaten, even if it's qute hard. But in 2v2 it's almost impossible to win against 2 good Zzap orks.

There is no way you can win against Ork fleet which has max number of Zzaps and recon beacons.

Here is what happens:
1)You shoot from the Tzeench cloud
2)Ork lobs beacon and fires Zzap volley
3)Your ship is paralyzed and Ork fleet uses BRB
4)You try to run away but one of your ships is slowed down and can't get out of the beacon radius in time
5)Ork fires second Zzap salvo, depletes your shields and slaps beacon on your ship if necessary
6)Repeat 1-5 unti you are dead



Removing or limiting the stack effect would solve this, perhaps? What is hurting more, the dmg that bypasses shields or the slow effect? (Or both?)

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Re: Orks back to one trick OP pony status? serious butthurt facepalm WTF thread :D

Postby Crnyo » 24 June 2016, 21:55

Taurusbully wrote:Removing or limiting the stack effect would solve this, perhaps? What is hurting more, the dmg that bypasses shields or the slow effect? (Or both?)

I think damage needs to be toned down. Ork need a way to deal with kite fleet cheesing and Zzaps are perfect for this. But right now Zzaps have such tremendous damage that Orks don't even need to bother with getting close and ramming.
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Re: Orks back to one trick OP pony status? serious butthurt facepalm WTF thread :D

Postby Ubikuuu » 24 June 2016, 22:01

AND revert the ridiculous cost decrease for everything except maybe Grot Launcha.

Edit: oh and for lower Zzap damage of course we mean absolutely GUT IT right?.
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Re: Orks back to one trick OP pony status? serious butthurt facepalm WTF thread :D

Postby Spartan-089 » 24 June 2016, 22:09

Sagranda wrote:To be honest:
It isn't easy to balance Orks while not giving them a way to reduce armor against Space Marines, while also nerfing Zzaps.

I have a lot of things in mind how Orks could be better, but so far it would make them probably suck versus Space Marines or against Eldar.

E.g.
Megakannonz would be more reliable if you gave them 2 attacks, but halve the damage per shot and reduce the crit-chance in accordance.

Eavy Kannonz just need to get rid of the imprecise attribute. Maybe give them 6k range again, too. Could reduce the damage slightly if they get too strong through it.

Grot Ship Launch Bays could need a reduced cost to 10 or so, down from 17

Chained Squig doesn't need to be an upgrade, but just a normal crew that gives less % per level than its equivalents (eg. 7% per level instead of 10% when a hull reaches 30% health)

Zzaps with reduced damage, slightly less crit-chance, but slightly better RoF.

Get rid of the stacking from Zzap slows

Get rid of the ship point cost reduction from the last patch.

Decrease the speed upgrade in additional speed and crit-chance, but in exchange either increase their overall speed or give them skills that allows for better catching up, or that affect the stats of the enemy ship

Increase CD on Trakktor or lessen it's pushing power.

etc.

While those changes look good vs. the other factions, they aren't that great against Space Marines.
Take out the chance of ignoring Holofields upgrade from Zzaps and you also lose in effectiveness against Eldar, unless you want to accidentally blow of your prow.


If you give them AP against, you only need to adjust the numbers.
One way to give them a kind of AP would be a stat (maybe through an upgrade) that reduces enemy armor for a few seconds. Could be an upgrade for Zzaps instead of the slow or the chance to ignore shields and holofields.


There are many ways and a lot of possibilities.


Agree with a few points but also disagree with a few.

1. having Zzaps not stack would make them useless. 1-2 second slow is nothing alone considering Zzaps poor rate of fire.

A proposed fix I had would be to modify the hit percentage of the Ignore sheilds Zzap upgrade dependant on distance. 50% at 9k, 33% at 12k, 25% at 15k. That way they are still a viable close-mid range catchup tool while removing the super-long ranged rediculousness.

2. Mega Kannons and Heavy Kannons do need a buff that I agree, either by range or acess to the newly modified ap rounds.

3. Launch Bays do need a reduced cost they are a bit expensive considering how bad ork bombers are, as of now they are only ok as fighter screens.

4. Chained Squig absolutely need to be a default crew option like everyone else, its rediculous considering orks have a higher chance of insabordination. Also it frees up a much needed upgrade slot, considering orks are very constrained in mandatory upgrades.

5. I disagree bringing costs back up, they seem to be perfectly priced now, taking into account their weaknesses from fires and hull breeches and slow speed.

Final note:

Orks are decent at brawling currently, but not the best, which is odd considering they are ya know orks. But trading off some of their brawling potential for chase ability was necessary due to the fact a majority factions in the game can kite while pumping out consistent dps. Whats the point of having them be great at brawling if they cant get get close to anyone.
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Re: Orks back to one trick OP pony status? serious butthurt facepalm WTF thread :D

Postby Sagranda » 24 June 2016, 22:30

Spartan-089 wrote:
Agree with a few points but also disagree with a few.

1. having Zzaps not stack would make them useless. 1-2 second slow is nothing alone considering Zzaps poor rate of fire.


As a compensation for it I would have given Zzaps faster firing and more tools for the Orks overall to close in.
It's always a package deal.

A proposed fix I had would be to modify the hit percentage of the Ignore sheilds Zzap upgrade dependant on distance. 50% at 9k, 33% at 12k, 25% at 15k. That way they are still a viable close-mid range catchup tool while removing the super-long ranged rediculousness.


That, too, could be a way, but I can see it being too rng reliant on Chaos 12-15k kiting fleets, unless you integreate more options to close in for the Orks or something that affects the stats of the enemy ship/s.

2. Mega Kannons and Heavy Kannons do need a buff that I agree, either by range or acess to the newly modified ap rounds.


My biggest issue with them is that when that one shot misses, then well...you have to wait quite a while until it can fire again.
The new rounds would just bring them to the state they were in before and that was a tad too strong.
That's why I suggested to give them more shots and maybe Zzaps the ability to reduce 75 armor to 50 for a few seconds (basically like their slow upgrade).

3. Launch Bays do need a reduced cost they are a bit expensive considering how bad ork bombers are, as of now they are only ok as fighter screens.


They are worse than other bombers, but theoretically you could put a Launch Bay on every Ork ship. With good bombers that would be a bit too strong ;)
I would just decrease the Grot Ship Launchas in terms of point costs, adjust the other weapons at the same time and then see where it is going from here.

5. I disagree bringing costs back up, they seem to be perfectly priced now, taking into account their weaknesses from fires and hull breeches and slow speed.


Give them more tools to close in or skills that affect the stats of enemy ships, maybe a slight speed buff, reduce Launch Bay costs and reduce the Looted Ship trait to 50% and you can up the costs again.
It should be clear that if you don't address these things, then don't up their costs.
As said before, package deals.


Edit:
Forgot something, but that's something that should be the case for every concerned faction:
De-link the prow weapons and the prow.
It's just dumb that one crit is able to destroy the amount of weaponry and for some ships/factions even "necessary" weapons.
Last edited by Sagranda on 24 June 2016, 23:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Orks back to one trick OP pony status? serious butthurt facepalm WTF thread :D

Postby Taurusbully » 24 June 2016, 23:05

I've been of for a while, just got back for the space marine. What was the cancer b4? Taunt? Is that why it is gone? Could they not have just reworked it?

Also, couldn't something like that return for limited ships, like they have the limits for favours on SM seens like they could do something similar to Ork ships.

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Re: Orks back to one trick OP pony status? serious butthurt facepalm WTF thread :D

Postby Zeblasky » 25 June 2016, 20:39

Crnyo wrote:
Zeblasky wrote:BTW, Tzeench Chaos fleet is very good against Zzaps, unless they tag your ship with a Beacon(but, considering, that 50% damage is done to the hull, they bring shields down quite slowly, so this is not such a big threat). If they can't see you, they can't kill you, and you can kite as long as you want. In 1v1 they can be beaten, even if it's qute hard. But in 2v2 it's almost impossible to win against 2 good Zzap orks.

Are you using lance or bomber fleets?

So far I've never lost with my zzap spam fleet but then again I've never played against Tzeench bomber fleet, only against Tzeench lance composition.


Bomber fleet. Even against ork Zzap carriers it's a nice way to win, even when ork spams probes like crazy.

Spartan-089 wrote:
3. Launch Bays do need a reduced cost they are a bit expensive considering how bad ork bombers are, as of now they are only ok as fighter screens.


I don't think that orks should be a good carrier fleet ever, this is not their trait. Ork Launch Bays being good only as a defensive tool is perfect for orks to survive enemy bomber-torpedo waves and get into action, ork bombers for their direct role(aka doing damage) are there just for a little bonus, if you want. But considering, that ork Bomber wings have 12 attacks against ordinance as well as any Fighter wing, it's better to use them as a second fighter screen against incoming ordinance, mainly the bombers. Time them right, send them in the way of incoming ordinance and, even if they wont do any damage to an enemy ship, they will certanly kill some torpedos and bombers.

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Re: Orks back to one trick OP pony status? serious butthurt facepalm WTF thread :D

Postby Bludfist » 27 June 2016, 12:56

Zeblasky wrote:I don't think that orks should be a good carrier fleet ever, this is not their trait. Ork Launch Bays being good only as a defensive tool is perfect for orks to survive enemy bomber-torpedo waves and get into action, ork bombers for their direct role(aka doing damage) are there just for a little bonus, if you want. But considering, that ork Bomber wings have 12 attacks against ordinance as well as any Fighter wing, it's better to use them as a second fighter screen against incoming ordinance, mainly the bombers. Time them right, send them in the way of incoming ordinance and, even if they wont do any damage to an enemy ship, they will certanly kill some torpedos and bombers.

Thats like saying that chaos should never be or have a good brawler fleet? Yet they have ships designed specifically for that with carnage's and slaughter's?

In which case we should make sure those ships are ineffective or mediocre at brawling right?

If your going to spend a kustom point and simultaneously weaken your broadsides for carrier bays then the return you get should be worth it
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Re: Orks back to one trick OP pony status? serious butthurt facepalm WTF thread :D

Postby Zeblasky » 27 June 2016, 13:43

Bludfist wrote:
Zeblasky wrote:I don't think that orks should be a good carrier fleet ever, this is not their trait. Ork Launch Bays being good only as a defensive tool is perfect for orks to survive enemy bomber-torpedo waves and get into action, ork bombers for their direct role(aka doing damage) are there just for a little bonus, if you want. But considering, that ork Bomber wings have 12 attacks against ordinance as well as any Fighter wing, it's better to use them as a second fighter screen against incoming ordinance, mainly the bombers. Time them right, send them in the way of incoming ordinance and, even if they wont do any damage to an enemy ship, they will certanly kill some torpedos and bombers.

Thats like saying that chaos should never be or have a good brawler fleet? Yet they have ships designed specifically for that with carnage's and slaughter's?

In which case we should make sure those ships are ineffective or mediocre at brawling right?

If your going to spend a kustom point and simultaneously weaken your broadsides for carrier bays then the return you get should be worth it


Well, they are worth it. Orks can have the best defence against incoming ordinance, if they would just time their bombers right, so they would collide with incoming threat. 1 usual bomber squadron has 6 attack against ordinance, while ork bomber squadron has 12. This can annihilate incoming bomber waves even before they reach ork ships.


EDIT: Also, consider, that orks bombers are also the most effective against enemy carrriers fighters screens. Seems like a nice bonus to have.
Last edited by Zeblasky on 27 June 2016, 15:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Orks back to one trick OP pony status? serious butthurt facepalm WTF thread :D

Postby Perturabo-Liberal » 27 June 2016, 13:49

On the subject of blowing out your prow and such.
I get that it's ork's thing to have powerful but unstable everything with risks of damaging yourself, but I never got why it must be crits.
Orks have a lot of healt, right? It's a resource you can spend. Make it so that their heavy weapons do not exlode but rather do X damage to your own ship X% of the times it is fired. The weapon will still be effective but it'll be up to a player to judje if his ship has enough health to take the risk of using it.
Maybe utilise such mechanic for zzaps too as a balancing factor with the ability to turn them on/off.
Last edited by Perturabo-Liberal on 27 June 2016, 16:19, edited 1 time in total.


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