I can't do it anymore, this game is broken.

Talk about Battlefleet Gothic: Armada here!
Otterz
(Former) Technical Tester
Posts: 69
Joined: 27 January 2016, 00:57
Contact:

I can't do it anymore, this game is broken.

Postby Otterz » 12 June 2016, 21:59

I have been playing this game since the technical alpha, I have been active on the forums, I have been offering my opinions and constructive criticism for a long while now but I have not seen any meaningful improvements to this game.

The single player is fun, if not a little repetitive, and all of the mechanics work in that scenario. However, the multi player is a complete mess.

Since the technical alpha there have been fundamental problems with the way that multiplayer works, the foremost being that all the devs have done is taken the mechanics from single player and forced them into a multiplayer setting.

Here are a few examples...

1. Ship destruction: Being punished for losing a "GAME" is not fun! This is a perfect example of a single player mechanic with no business in multi player! If you lose a game of Monopoly do you start the next game with a income penalty? If you lose a game of Starcraft can you not build a certain unit the next game? No! Because its stupid! All it does is make the committed players look for cheesy ways to avoid being punished (like warping out without a fight to grind renown, or just capitulating as soon as things look bad to not lose any ships), and it makes non-committed players just stop playing the game!

2. Upgrades do not cost fleet points: No matter what BS matchmaking system you come up with it will never be able to balance a fleet that has max level ships with favors and full upgrades against a naked fleet, the upgraded fleet will always win, the game is mismatched from the start. People shoot this down by saying off topic nonsense like "but fleets are too small already! If upgrades use up fleet points then fleets will be 1-2 ships!" For starters that is stupid, if upgrades cost points it might decrease the size of fleets by 1 light cruiser, second there can always be an increase in point caps to accommodate. Free upgrades are a campaign mechanic that works because the AI has a scaling level of difficulty independent of your own strength, it doesn't work in multi player where people want a fair fight.

3.Balance: The balance has only gotten worse since the tech alpha. The devs are so heavy handed with the nerf hammer that factions slowly becoming clones of one another, instead of creating an asymmetrical balance Imperials, chaos, and orks have slowly just become more and more alike. The only outlier is Eldar which goes between bouts of crazy overpowered to crazy underpowered. This only goes to show that the devs simply don't know how to do asymmetrical balance. The fact that space marines are going to be added this month will be the nail in the coffin of balance as far as I can tell. They can't balance 4 factions (hell the only time imperials vs chaos was balanced was when they had identical upgrades, and that was just boring) they will not be able to balance 5.

I don't know what the point of any of the beta or alpha was. The devs just seem to do whatever they want independent of any feed back they get, unless its from the "special testers" who seem to be some golden boys who just showed up over night a few months back and don't appear to be pushing for any real changes in the game.

I was really excited for this game, I was really excited for the consumer friendly business model that allowed people to play it and still get "early adopter bonuses". But I feel like this game won't last a year if some things don't get changed. As it is games are already getting harder and harder to find, at least for me.

I wanted this game to succeed, I still want it to, but its honestly so far removed from what we saw in that first trailer oh so long ago that I have next to no desire to play it anymore.

User avatar
Bludfist
Posts: 997
Joined: 14 March 2016, 22:46
Contact:

Re: I can't do it anymore, this game is broken.

Postby Bludfist » 12 June 2016, 23:10

Yeah i can agree with a large chunk of the stuff written here, the multiplayer system is fundamentally flawed, the persistent fleet, renown nonsense thats pointless after max admirals and ships and all that jazz should have stayed in single player.

All it does is put off new players from trying to get into multiplayer

The insistence that we need to develop generalist fleets is wrong, the idea that "the W40K universe is unfair and so this game must be too" is in some ways flabbergasting, the idea of built in frustration

Also their are other mechanics an upgrades that need to be removed or reworked such as AP rounds upgrade, it completely nullifies the unique armor values for each faction with the explanation of it being ok, that its only if they want to put their ships in danger of 3k range and all that, being false

Useless upgrades, undesirable ships.

And quite a few bugs, this latest patch alone carriers were launching double the normal amount of ordinance, you couldnt remove the 3k kannonz upgrade, and the zzzap slow seems bugged and lasting more than 2s according to some community complaints

I really wish we had mod tools so that we could start a community overhaul mod
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
Image

Myridus
Posts: 29
Joined: 21 March 2016, 22:50
Contact:

Re: I can't do it anymore, this game is broken.

Postby Myridus » 12 June 2016, 23:31

My biggest gripe about this game has always been the punishment for losing ships in multiplayer.

Yesterday I created a new Eldar Fleet 5 TIMES because I lost the first match or two. These matches were most of the time, vs level 10 ships vs my level 1-2 ships. Nothing is fun about fighting a fully upgraded/favored Tyrant with 3 Eldar LC. The extra points don't mean shit when they can pick off one ship very quickly because of their upgrades.

Fix that shit, and I'll probably get interested again. Right now, it's like a chore to keep playing. I've never been able to get to battleships because I always end up fighting all lvl 10 ships at some point 3-4 times in a row and I lose all my shit over and over. I just get aggravated at that point and put the game down. It's just such a disheartening system.

I want to play this game so badly, but I can't barely justify it at this point. I'm off to Totar War Warhammer and Overwatch for a while.

RedDevilCG
Posts: 134
Joined: 24 April 2016, 17:27
Contact:

Re: I can't do it anymore, this game is broken.

Postby RedDevilCG » 13 June 2016, 00:07

How are Chaos and Orks becoming alike?

User avatar
Bludfist
Posts: 997
Joined: 14 March 2016, 22:46
Contact:

Re: I can't do it anymore, this game is broken.

Postby Bludfist » 13 June 2016, 01:18

RedDevilCG wrote:How are Chaos and Orks becoming alike?

The fact that orks now have real and threatening long range lances and chaos with ap armor pen upgrade is the best brawler in the game

:P
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
Image

MYNAME?
Posts: 881
Joined: 19 March 2016, 18:39
Contact:

Re: I can't do it anymore, this game is broken.

Postby MYNAME? » 13 June 2016, 04:15

Bludfist wrote:
RedDevilCG wrote:How are Chaos and Orks becoming alike?

The fact that orks now have real and threatening long range lances and chaos with ap armor pen upgrade is the best brawler in the game

:P


Good point but it was either that or make the orks faster. Taunt had to go. I really dislike the AP ammo upgrade and I hope they remove it soon for chaos and give them something unique

User avatar
Bludfist
Posts: 997
Joined: 14 March 2016, 22:46
Contact:

Re: I can't do it anymore, this game is broken.

Postby Bludfist » 13 June 2016, 09:31

MYNAME? wrote:
Bludfist wrote:
RedDevilCG wrote:How are Chaos and Orks becoming alike?

The fact that orks now have real and threatening long range lances and chaos with ap armor pen upgrade is the best brawler in the game

:P


Good point but it was either that or make the orks faster. Taunt had to go. I really dislike the AP ammo upgrade and I hope they remove it soon for chaos and give them something unique



I mean sure they made orks faster with the boost upgrade but one can argue now tha we have more catch tools between trakktors and zzzaps that the speed boost wasn't "necessary" but it's not like I dosnt come with real legitimate downsides

If you equip it the. You cannot be so libiral with your use of BRB for fear of blowing your engines so you can't/won't ram targets as frequently or chase as good as you did before with induction cells and double BRB

AP rounds need to be reworked, if the devs insist on keeping it in the game, then should be changed to a flat -25
But not reduce past 25
So:
75>50
50> 25
And no effect on 25 armor

Chaos and IN should not be able to out brawl orks at 3k
Chaos walking into Aldorf be like
Spoiler : :
Image

MYNAME?
Posts: 881
Joined: 19 March 2016, 18:39
Contact:

Re: I can't do it anymore, this game is broken.

Postby MYNAME? » 13 June 2016, 10:37

Bludfist wrote:
MYNAME? wrote:
Bludfist wrote:The fact that orks now have real and threatening long range lances and chaos with ap armor pen upgrade is the best brawler in the game

:P


Good point but it was either that or make the orks faster. Taunt had to go. I really dislike the AP ammo upgrade and I hope they remove it soon for chaos and give them something unique



I mean sure they made orks faster with the boost upgrade but one can argue now tha we have more catch tools between trakktors and zzzaps that the speed boost wasn't "necessary" but it's not like I dosnt come with real legitimate downsides

If you equip it the. You cannot be so libiral with your use of BRB for fear of blowing your engines so you can't/won't ram targets as frequently or chase as good as you did before with induction cells and double BRB

AP rounds need to be reworked, if the devs insist on keeping it in the game, then should be changed to a flat -25
But not reduce past 25
So:
75>50
50> 25
And no effect on 25 armor

Chaos and IN should not be able to out brawl orks at 3k


Agreed. Atleast the engine damage is just temporary

User avatar
Ahzek Ahriman
Posts: 434
Joined: 15 May 2016, 12:51
Location: Krakow, Poland
Contact:

Re: I can't do it anymore, this game is broken.

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 13 June 2016, 10:58

Bludfist wrote:
MYNAME? wrote:
Bludfist wrote:The fact that orks now have real and threatening long range lances and chaos with ap armor pen upgrade is the best brawler in the game

:P


Good point but it was either that or make the orks faster. Taunt had to go. I really dislike the AP ammo upgrade and I hope they remove it soon for chaos and give them something unique



I mean sure they made orks faster with the boost upgrade but one can argue now tha we have more catch tools between trakktors and zzzaps that the speed boost wasn't "necessary" but it's not like I dosnt come with real legitimate downsides

If you equip it the. You cannot be so libiral with your use of BRB for fear of blowing your engines so you can't/won't ram targets as frequently or chase as good as you did before with induction cells and double BRB

AP rounds need to be reworked, if the devs insist on keeping it in the game, then should be changed to a flat -25
But not reduce past 25
So:
75>50
50> 25
And no effect on 25 armor

Chaos and IN should not be able to out brawl orks at 3k


Imo chaos instead of AP ammo should get either additional upgrade to lances (like, moahr damage or faster reload or whatever), or have the targetting matrix give them more accuracy (although that would be weird for faction with supposedly inferior tech, disregarding daemonic shit). After all, they make use of much lighter, smaller, old type shells. Plus I don't think chaos logistics provide them with too much of a choice in ammo.

Btw Bludfist, I give you thumbs up for your new avatar.
The sentence below is true
Spoiler : :
The sentence above is false

User avatar
CALiGeR190
Community Moderator
Posts: 1202
Joined: 27 October 2015, 19:03
Location: Manchester, England
Contact:

Re: I can't do it anymore, this game is broken.

Postby CALiGeR190 » 13 June 2016, 11:10

Otterz wrote:1. Ship destruction: Being punished for losing a "GAME" is not fun! This is a perfect example of a single player mechanic with no business in multi player! If you lose a game of Monopoly do you start the next game with a income penalty? If you lose a game of Starcraft can you not build a certain unit the next game? No! Because its stupid! All it does is make the committed players look for cheesy ways to avoid being punished (like warping out without a fight to grind renown, or just capitulating as soon as things look bad to not lose any ships), and it makes non-committed players just stop playing the game!

I only very recently changed my opinion of this system to be more in line with what you're describing.
I sang its praises all through the alpha in October 2015, and actually made recommendations to reduce rewards to increase the grind: for me it gave me much more intensive to play the game and made the game a real challenge to play, I liked that, and I was among others who agreed with me... but as the technical test came and more people started playing, it became clear I was in a minority, but I still defended the system as an intensive to play.
Its only after release, and I haven't lost a single game against opponents that either never see again or repeatedly rage at me that I finally realized the system is flawed... Although I personally prefer the MP the way it is, I agree that its damaging.

Otterz wrote:2. Upgrades do not cost fleet points: No matter what BS matchmaking system you come up with it will never be able to balance a fleet that has max level ships with favors and full upgrades against a naked fleet, the upgraded fleet will always win, the game is mismatched from the start. People shoot this down by saying off topic nonsense like "but fleets are too small already! If upgrades use up fleet points then fleets will be 1-2 ships!" For starters that is stupid, if upgrades cost points it might decrease the size of fleets by 1 light cruiser, second there can always be an increase in point caps to accommodate. Free upgrades are a campaign mechanic that works because the AI has a scaling level of difficulty independent of your own strength, it doesn't work in multi player where people want a fair fight.

This idea was actually floated for a while, with mixed reception, I don't really know what changed the devs' minds in the end.
I personally am neutral on this subject, since it only really punishes fleets that have literally no upgrades; and even a naked fleet vs a lightly upgraded fleet compares fairly well with adequate skill on the players behalf.

Otterz wrote:3.Balance: The balance has only gotten worse since the tech alpha. The devs are so heavy handed with the nerf hammer that factions slowly becoming clones of one another, instead of creating an asymmetrical balance Imperials, chaos, and orks have slowly just become more and more alike. The only outlier is Eldar which goes between bouts of crazy overpowered to crazy underpowered. This only goes to show that the devs simply don't know how to do asymmetrical balance. The fact that space marines are going to be added this month will be the nail in the coffin of balance as far as I can tell. They can't balance 4 factions (hell the only time imperials vs chaos was balanced was when they had identical upgrades, and that was just boring) they will not be able to balance 5.

This is probably the only thing I strongly disagree with you on.
The 4 factions in the game ARE NOT clones of each other, the differences aren't radical (with the exception of the Eldar), but they are different enough to radically change the way they are played and built into fleets. The differing upgrade system helped massively in securing asymmetrical balance (I'm particularly talking about the IN vs Chaos lines ups), as the capabilities of each faction where already subtly different, and difference in upgrades supporting radically different play styles.

In terms of raw balance, I would have agreed that the Orks suffer as a race and the the Eldar are under powered with a vastly overpowered weapon (the Pulsars with the range upgrades) while the Chaos and IN where the only two (mostly) perfectly balanced factions: but the most recent patch has changed my opinion. The Eldar are now excellent kiters and carriers, StarCannons are viable now and the Pulsar no longer snipes cruisers from 12K away. The Eldar are now far more balanced than they have ever been.
Orks got the abiaty to execute captains, viable Zzaps and closing mechanics and well as capabilities for speed upgrades. The Orks are no longer at the tender mercy of RNG and kitting fleets to the same extent that they where, and are no longer the monstrous bulldozers they where when first introduced.

I honestly don't think the argument of balance is a viable one in this game anymore, as far as I'm concerned It's more or less perfect, although I'm nervous as to what the SM will do to it... I have bad memories of what happened when the Orks where first introduced.
Where's your Federation now?
-Imperial Navy

Alpha Tester - Getting the game on its feet
Technical Tester - We had to get the balance right somehow
Community Moderator - Purging spammers and maintaining the realm
BFG Wiki Founding Member


Return to “General Gameplay Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests