left hand marines?

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Imperator5
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Re: left hand marines?

Postby Imperator5 » 20 November 2016, 14:52

Ashardalon wrote:no they are not
they have a preferred hand
true, a space marine is more ambidextrous than the most ambidextrous human ever
so a human would never notice the difference but if two marines do a duel and one switches to his off hand that will still be an insult
in the space wolf omnibus he switches hands then positions his legs before trowing the spear of Russ
if he was going to switch his legs anyway he could have thrown it with his left hand, if it wasnt a sacred relic he probably would have but since he couldnt afford to make a mistake he used his best hand
they do have a best hand the difference is minimal but there is a difference

the mechanicus are humans so thats just BS, their mechadendrites will be like their preferred hand but they still have a preferred hand , they just tend to replace their worst hand with an augmentic because having a worse hand is a biological weakness

eldar im not sure but they have a brain that has a left and right side similar to humans and so its probable that they do have a preferred hand, although eldar are very conscious about how they move so humans just seem to have two left hands for them so its pretty normal that to a human they will appear ambidextrous, but it is highly unlikely that they are

necrons are robots now so yes now they probably are now , doubt that they where tho
if you look at a destroyer (they are basically nihilistic necrons that have lost their identity and only care about destruction, its an infectious kind of corruption that other necrons somewhat fear similar to the corruption of the flayed ones (might be outdated tho))
they only have a cannon on one hand if they where truly ambidextrous and had that instinctively they would replace both hands with a cannon when turning into a destroyer as they only care about destruction
it makes me think that the original necrothir where not ambidextrous but that was a long time ago

tyranids seems like hive tyrants and lictors would definitely be but it sounds like a waste of resources to go trough the effort for hormagaunts but from looking at zoantropes they dont seem to have a segmented brain which is the cause of having a preferred hand so it could be that they are all ambidextrous

from what i know about orks they actually are ambidextrous but similar to how eldar looking at humans orks tend to be so clumsy that you probably wouldnt notice
but their brain is one mass, one very small mass, so they should be ambidextrous but there is little official data about ork brain composition, looking at the weirdboy crew they do seem to have a split down the middle so maybe they do have a preferred hand

im not using humans as a baseline, i use biology and basic science which have no reason not to be applicable in the 40k multiverse unless there is lore stating otherwise

scorch's explanation seems the best


There is a lot of source stating that marines can use both their hands equally well, so I would like to hear an exact quote from a page that says they can not. The Deathwatch rulebook explicitly states it so. Deathwatch Core Rulebook page 25.

This also matters because a lot of marines dual wield. In fact most marines that are not tacticals, devastators or sternguards do.

As to why Ragnar likes one hand, there is an easy explanation. He is a Space Wolf, and thus he is a superstitious barbarian. He may easily believe that he has a lucky hand, or that he just uses one hand out of sheer habit, as Space Wolves are nothing if not lovers of habits from Fenris. It can be a personal preference after decades of using one hand for melee and the other for shooting. Why break the routine if there is no reason to?

Another valid thing can be that a Space marine gets one crippled and or/replaced by an augmetic, and thus uses his whole hand.

So just because a few marines have a habit, it does not invalidate another piece of lore stating something very clearly.

The Techpriests also got a lot of their brains replaced by computers at higher ranks so this is not a problem for them either. Of course a newly joined one does not have these, but the very concept of artificial limbs must require a lot of mechanical interfacing. The Dark Heresy rulebook lets them take it when they get into the rank of Enginseer (or equal to it) . So it is not something they get out of the start, but something they gain as they get through the ranks. It is also more likely to be an upgrade for Skitarii, Magi, and lesser adepts who need to multitask a lot or need special agility.

As to why Destroyers and necrons got one weapon arm? Could be that it was easier to supply energy to one gun, to program aiming for one gun, etc. Necrontyr could have been, originally anything handed, or even clumsy with both hands.

Also, ambidexterity can be learned to a degree in real life, or in 40k, for example, for all the dual wielders out there. Sisters of battle Seraphim, Commissars and most IG heroes usually have a melee and a ranged weapon. And unless the ranged weapon is an AOE one, it will require them to have both handedness to a degree, or they will just miss.

It is also a bad idea to apply precise biology to aliens. It is usually a good idea to apply Evolutionary principles to natural species and appliable physics in a hard sci fi setting, but that's it. This is something that anybody who knows anything about biology knows. This is called this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handedness

This states that all male dogs are left handed. Does this mean wolves are too, and if then, Wolves? :D I am joking here.

Applying this to genetically engineered, cybernetic, or wholly alien organisms is unwise. Just like how you can't apply modern physics to the Warp, Void Shields, Plasma Generators, Antigrav technology, etc, you can't apply hominid biology to the 40k races, especially since almost half of them had such flaws edited out of them by design.

It is a theory in scientific circles that human handedness developed due to the fact that primitive age combatants used shields and melee weapons.
Having the shield, the item that requires the less "handedness", means you can cover your heart better with it, while you can use your handedness on the right with your sword, maul, club, whatever.
So because our heart is on the left, right handedness meant that you were more likely to survive the battle, and natural selection happened.

This does not apply to space marines, as they got a heart on either side anyway. I do agree that orks can be clumsy with both hands.

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Re: left hand marines?

Postby Ashardalon » 20 November 2016, 17:10

to find an actual quote will take me a while as i would have to read all those books again
i do think i remember an ultramarine having his right hand replaced by an augmentic made from necron metal
he was fearing corruption and was refusing to use it because of that, stopping himself several times mid action and switching to his less preferred hand, the complete opposite of what you suggest, the habit of using his preferred hand overrode his distaste of using the bionic
and again the difference would be so minor that only another space marine would have a chance of spotting it
practically the difference does not exist, but that doesnt mean its not there

about dualwielding, i am not ambidextrous jet i can dualwield, not really an argument

more likely for Ragnar to have a habit then to have a lucky hand which means he uses it more and thus has more training in that hand thus keeping his primary hand primary, ultramarines will probably have this a lot less then space wolves but all marines start as human, it makes sense that some non harmful subconscious habits will remain, like a preferred hand

either way the difference would be so minor that its almost irrelevant, it just bothers me in an fps to see a melee weapon in the left hand

on the deathwatch book, i dont have it so cant really have a good look at the exact quote
but compared to anything else in those books marines will count as ambidextrous, like i said a marine will always be more ambidextrous than the most ambidextrous human ever will be, it would be silly for a player playing a marine to have to spend points into having that like a regular mortal would
using rpg rules is like using the TT rules to explain stuff, the same TT rules that has genestealers being more expensive in points than a marine

for high ranking tech priests it is unlikely that either of their hands is preferred most high ranking tech priests dont even have hands anymore, only keeping those if they interact with the unaugmented regularly as a way of not freaking people out
i have said that their worst hand is the most likely to get replaced first
not sure if you can count that as ambidextrous tho

on destroyers, they aren't designed, they mutate, kinda, its complicated
like the flayed ones it is a corruption, a full dedication to destruction, they would give up their eyes if it could give them more firepower, in the end you dont need to see what you destroy if you are going to destroy everything
but yes, long time ago, so no way to be anywhere near certain

Also, ambidexterity can be learned to a degree in real life, or in 40k, for example, for all the dual wielders out there. Sisters of battle Seraphim, Commissars and most IG heroes usually have a melee and a ranged weapon. And unless the ranged weapon is an AOE one, it will require them to have both handedness to a degree, or they will just miss.

this might be the origin of our disagreement, i see ambidexterity as being equally capable with both hand while using this it just means being capable with both hands
if thats the case i am ambidextrous, but that is now how i see it

also the natural selection thing is a really weird example to use for genetically engineered super soldiers that cant reproduce (i think? maybe with some help from slaanesh? ;) )

thanks for the wiki link tho, i was mostly just aware of the "division of labor" segment (which is why i referred to the zoantropes (and orks as far as i can find) non segmented brain)
though the anthropomorphism one was unnecessary since non mammalian creatures except insects also have handedness it is evolutionary inefficient to be ambidextrous, which is why i thought it unlikely that hormagaunts would be , tho it is highly likely that the standard spinegaunts are

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Re: left hand marines?

Postby Imperator5 » 21 November 2016, 11:14

I'm afraid I really doubt you can dual weild with anything resembling a sort of efficiency. With Dual wielding, I do mean using two weapons with precision. Like a fencer with a pistol, not a guy with a club and a flamethrower.
That was something that was rare even in the days where people regularly and widespreadly used melee weapons. I'm really sorry but I won't believe you are Lara Croft. No offense, but this is an extremely rare thing nowdays for one to fight with 2 weapons. Fighting with two clubs as a kid in a schoolyard punch-out does not count, or I would be a master assassin too ;)


How do necrons mutate exactly? This is not your fault, but something I feel like GW missed out. Does the living metal alter their forms? Is it a Cryptec? Some automated machinery?

Quote:

Handedness

Space Marines are naturally ambidextrous, so in Deathwatch, it is not important to note which hand is the dominant. You may, of course, choose that your Space Marine prefers to use one hand or the other if you wish.



To me it seems that some marines may just use it as a habit, even if both hands are equally capable.

With the Mechanicus, it is indeed true that they may choose to forgo their hands at all, but I am sure higher ranking Techpriests are very dextrous with all their limbs, whatever those may be, in case they need fine manipulation or do combat regularly.

Of course, the Magos who mostly works with computer code may not have much dexterity in either hands. The one that has a dozen limbs for working with miniaturisation will need all of them to be super precise.

I used the natural selection for humans. It is a real life theory that analyzes combat in ancient Egypt, Rome, Crusades, etc.

The fact that Space Marines are so thoroughly genetically engineered in recent lore in fact lends weight that such detrimental human faults would be cleared off them.

As far as Tyranids go, I really doubt their brains are wired in the same way as Earth animals. I even doubt Space Marine, ork, eldar brains are wired in the same way. Remember, a Marine's entire body is altered by the Geneseed, it is not just unchanged human parts with additional organs sawn in. I do admit GW does not spell this exactly out, but it is very clearly apparent from a lot of sources.

I also doubt Gaunts need handedness, they are not exactly quality creatures. So a Lictor may be ambidextrous, and a Gaunt just... slashes with both claws. It does not exactly need fine manipulation, does it?

Remember we are talking about species, the Astartes, Orks, Tyranids, Mechanicus, Eldar, who were genetically engineered and or cybernetically augmented by technology that is incomprehensible and unfathomable to us like quantum physics is to a caveman. Applying evolution and even physics goes out of the window with these cases. If we were talking about naturally evolved species like Humans, Kroot, Tau, it would be relevant. Though recent fluff says that the Tau genetically engineer their casts to some degree too, and that little Tau are born in vats, they do not reproduce sexually. Of course any such engineering would be way subpar to the races we talked about, who were engineered by such things as the Emprah, Old ones, and C'tan.
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