Universal ship comparisons: Executor-Class SSD vs Retribution-Class BB

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Universal ship comparisons: Executor-Class SSD vs Retribution-Class BB

Postby CALiGeR190 » 28 May 2016, 19:44

*Changed the 'Shield' category to 'Protection' so hull compositions can be taken into account

Executor-Class SSD

Image

Lore:
This warship was created as nothing short of the ultimate symbol of Imperial power.
At 19 km in length, only the Vengeance-Class Dreadnought could approach it in terms of sheer scale: a monster even among SSDs, no ship at the time of it's construction being capable of destroying it with conventional weapons. The personnel required to man the ship meaning that noone other than the Empire had the manpower to field such a ship. Her cost in both resources and credits meaning many planets had their populations starved, impoverished and enslaved; resources and people being completely stripped from Imperial subject worlds to feed the construction of the Gargantuan vessel.

The ships armament was as unrivalled as her size, able to boast more fire-power than whole fleets of lesser warships combined.
She wouldn't be overtaken in the Size or Fire-power department until the Development of the Equally menacing Eclipse-Class SSD. Despite these ships' impressive size and fire-power, they where often denied the chance to put it to full effect due to the weak and fragile nature of much of her opposition: The Empire later (wisely) deciding resources where better spent on the much more economically viable Imperial-Class ISDs. Although her legacy lived on with her smaller, cheaper, cousin the Belator-Class SSD.

Armaments:
2000x Octuple Fire-linked Heavy Turbo Lasers
2000x Octuple Fire-Linked Turbo Lasers
250x Concussive Assault Missile Batteries (30 Missile tubes per battery)
250x Single Heavy Ion Cannons
40x Tractor Beam Projectors
500x Single Laser cannons (Multi-role, PD and close range Anti-shipping)

Manoeuvrability:
1,230 g Max acceleration
Max speed 40 MGLT (something around 20 c)

Protection:
2x KDY 72X-SSD Shield Generator Domes
Titanium alloy-reinforced Alusteel with Reactive Durasteel skin-plate.

Targeting:
LeGrange-Pattern targeting computers.

Retribution-Class Battleship

Image

Lore:
The Retribution is one of the proudest ships in the Imperial navy. She has served (like all Imperial Battleships) since the Imperium's birth at the Great Crusade, championing many battles and felling many foes in the Emperor's name. But while the Oberon is the workhorse, the Apocalypse and Victory are the Archers, Invincible the hunter and Emperor the leader: Retribution is the true Battleship among them. She is the toughest and most heavily gun-armed vessel in regular service with the Imperium, as well as being among the largest (like her sister battleships) at around 8 km in length.

The Retributions single design purpose is nothing less than the complete and utter destruction of any brave (or foolish) enough to stand in her path in opposition of the Imperium. Her broadsides being the stuff of legend: pummelling whole fleets into brutal submission in broadside duels, even other Battleships having much to fear from a Retribution's Broadside fire-power.

Armaments:
24x Heavy Macro Cannons (3 Batteries per broadside)
5x Dorsal Lances
6x Heavy Torpedo Tubes**
6x Super-Heavy Mass Drivers (3 per wing)
Unknown number of Weapon Batteries (Melta pulsars, Missile Batteries, Plasma Cannons, Sub-Macro Cannons, Grav Cannons)

*Equipable Torpedo armaments: Plasma Torps (most common), Melta Torps, Vortex Torps (rare), Homing/seeker torps (rare)
**Heavy (larger yield) Warheads

Manoeuvrability:
1,800 g Max Acceleration

Protection:
Multi-layered Battleship-Class Void Shields
Adamantine-Faremite Composite Armour+Alloy-reinforced Adamantine Armoured Prow

Targeting:
Mars-Pattern Targeting Cogitators

Combat Comparisons

Armaments: In terms of Armaments the Executor comes far ahead in terms of sheer volume of weaponry, but the Retribution's lances, Macro Cannons and Torps are far superior to any of the weapons the Executor is equipped with in terms of raw damage per hit. Despite this, the Executor puts out damage ranging into the single Exaton figures, about double what the Retribution is capable of with all of her weapons combined. Although Retribution can more reliably put all of that damage onto a target from a greater range thanks to superior targeting...
So this is a close draw, only because of abysmal Star Wars accuracy: if the Executor could actually hit with a majority of it's shots, then the Executor would be the clear winner.

Range: While the effective range of the Executor is around the same as an ISD (5,000 km), and the Retribution can reliably engage far beyond that (100,000+ km), the Executor (and the smaller ISDs) can hit targets beyond their effective range: their targeting systems just aren't well optimised for it. Normally this would mean a clear victory for the 40K ship, as they can accurately engage from a greater distance where most of the return fire is likely to miss: but the sheer volume of fire the Executor can put down more or less robs that advantage from the Retribution, as the ship is still going to be subjected to double digit Petatones of damage from the Executor (very similar to the kind of damage the Retribution is able to put down on the Executor).
For this reason, neither hold a range advantage over the other, although the Executor would easily overpower and destroy a Retribution with superior targeting equipment or if the Retribution gets too close.

Speed: The two are quite similar here, neither being particularly fast vessels, but the Retribution does hold the edge over the Executor.

Durability:
Now this is tricky to call between the two.
The Executor has the superior shields, being able to withstand impacts from Several Hyperspace-speed Imperial-Class ISD slamming into her and having her shield drop by only 40%, while the Retributions Void shields can 'Merely' claim that it can displace the Earth's mass before finally going down... given the Executor has very few projectile weapons, that's not as impressive as it sounds in this case.
As for hulls, its less of a competition. While the armour of the Executor is exceptional by anything in SW, it's highly unlikely judging by it's inability to resit star fighter impacts for long that it would fair well against Macro Cannons and Lances. On the other hand, the Retribution has been known to brawl with other battleships for hours even without her shield up, armour withstanding all but the very heaviest of fire.
Overall, this goes to the Retribution, as she holds a massive advantage in hull protection and isn't hugely inferior to the Executor for shield strength.

Comparison outside of combat

Both ships are designed as Battleship (one of them quite literally being the purest incarnation of a Battleship in 40K), so neither have many roles to play outside of combat. The Executor can make for a good transport and carries all the equipment and personnel necessary to launch a planetary invasion.
Since the two share identical roles outside of that, the edge goes to the Executor for versatility outside of combat.

The two are extremely expensive and time consuming to produce, but since the Executor means whole populations and planets need to be literally turned inside-out to produce them, I'm giving the small edge to the Retribution here in terms of price and construction.

In terms of speed: Retribution has slight edge in Stellar travel, but massive disadvantage in inter-system travel. Executor wins.

Service life is no competition. A Retribution is considered young if it is a couple of hundred years old while an SSD is lucky if it stays in service for more than a few decades. A Retribution will not need replacing for a VERY long time if not lost in combat, much unlike an SSD, which will wither out fairly quickly in continuous service.

Scenario Battles

Battles between these two ships would most likly be fought as the most epic broadside gun duels you will ever see, with a sizeable fleet escorting each. The SW formation of ISDs, maybe a few Battle cruisers and lesser SSDs/Dreadnoughts along with the Executor will pour out a much more vast quantity of shots: but the IN formation of much fewer cruisers, Light cruisers and BCs with their escorts will be far more accurate and damaging with their shots.
The comparison between the two ships in this combat scenario is no different. At the engagement range where the Retribution is most comfortable, the two will be the equal of the other for fire power, but the Retributions superior Durability will win her the fight. At closer range, where the Executor is most effective, the Retribution will be torn apart in relatively short order by the Fire power they are being subjected to.

Otherwise, whoever's escort fleet wins out over the other will win the battle.

Summary

This one is the hardest one to call, the two are very evenly matched in many cases (despite the many differences in doctrine, age and size). The Retribution holds the advantage at range, but then the Executor rips through the Retribution with ease at close range, for that reason: this is the first draw I'm going to make. The two match each other almost pace-for-pace inside and outside of combat.
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Re: Universal ship comparisons: Executor-Class SSD vs Retribution-Class BB

Postby Inspector of War » 28 May 2016, 20:34

Just curious, where did you get these estimates, 8km for the Retribution and 100,000km range, for example? Or the strength of Void Shields?
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Re: Universal ship comparisons: Executor-Class SSD vs Retribution-Class BB

Postby CALiGeR190 » 28 May 2016, 20:41

Inspector of War wrote:Just curious, where did you get these estimates, 8km for the Retribution and 100,000km range, for example? Or the strength of Void Shields?

Imperial BBs being 8Km long seems to be the consensus in the wider debates for Imperial BB sizes. Although she's depicted as being bigger in books and art.

The 100,000 is just a random figure roughly equal to 'short range' for Imperial warships. The point I'm making there is that she can engage from many MANY times the distance of the Executor accurately... But the Executor has the Retribution completely outclassed by raw firepower

Void sheild strength is aparently from Shadow Point (I think that was the name he gave me... I'm crap with remembering names, which is why I'm so bad with sources...), quoting Imperitor on that one.

Most of the SW stuff is from Dark Empire (again, not entirely sure I got that name right either...) and Legends fluff.
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Re: Universal ship comparisons: Executor-Class SSD vs Retribution-Class BB

Postby Ghostrider93 » 29 May 2016, 15:44

I would like to see how a battlestar from the Re imagined series would hold up to 40k ship.
Mayby a Galactica or Pegasus Class Battlestar against, say a sword frigate or an Iconoclaust or Infidel Raider.

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Re: Universal ship comparisons: Executor-Class SSD vs Retribution-Class BB

Postby Imperator5 » 29 May 2016, 16:49

Another amount of stuff not put into it.

Garro: Sword of Truth claims a Retribution battleship can cause a deathstar-like explosion of a planet with a single broadside volley of its weapon batteries. It has two such broadsides on both sides.
It also got 6 torpedoes, which can hold cyclonic warheads.

Each cyclonic warhead can range from low yield "100km wide crater" to medium yield "blast apart a continent" to high yield "Vapourise a planet with a supernova-grade energy release" ones.

That is enough firepower to destroy eight planets at the same time, if we discount the shield-ramming. Also discounting the lances. One HH novel hints at lances being exaton-grade.

I would not say its outclassed by raw firepower. Even an Eclipse class would be hard pressed to match its firepower.

Also, armour is not factored in, Adamantium/Ceramite is pretty much better and the Retribution's armour is thicker too. Starwars Equivalent would be coating a ship in mandalorian iron/beskar.

Take that, people who thought nerfing the Retribution from 24 to 12 damage was a good idea.

Imperial battleship size varies from 2km to 25km, but most consistent numbers are 6km, 8km, 12km and 16km. 16km seems consistent with artwork, which I feel gives it more credibility, if we allow for the "escorts are ISD size" constant.

Also, neither can go faster than light once more.
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Re: Universal ship comparisons: Executor-Class SSD vs Retribution-Class BB

Postby CALiGeR190 » 29 May 2016, 19:27

Imperator5 wrote:Another amount of stuff not put into it.

Garro: Sword of Truth claims a Retribution battleship can cause a deathstar-like explosion of a planet with a single broadside volley of its weapon batteries. It has two such broadsides on both sides.
It also got 6 torpedoes, which can hold cyclonic warheads.

Each cyclonic warhead can range from low yield "100km wide crater" to medium yield "blast apart a continent" to high yield "Vapourise a planet with a supernova-grade energy release" ones.

That is enough firepower to destroy eight planets at the same time, if we discount the shield-ramming. Also discounting the lances. One HH novel hints at lances being exaton-grade.

I would not say its outclassed by raw firepower. Even an Eclipse class would be hard pressed to match its firepower.

Also, armour is not factored in, Adamantium/Ceramite is pretty much better and the Retribution's armour is thicker too. Starwars Equivalent would be coating a ship in mandalorian iron/beskar.

Take that, people who thought nerfing the Retribution from 24 to 12 damage was a good idea.

Imperial battleship size varies from 2km to 25km, but most consistent numbers are 6km, 8km, 12km and 16km. 16km seems consistent with artwork, which I feel gives it more credibility, if we allow for the "escorts are ISD size" constant.

Also, neither can go faster than light once more.

The Retribution stuff depends on the calcs/sources you use.
Based on the sources you're suggesting, the Retribution vs Executor comparison is just silly since the Ret outclasses the Executor completely.
I'm aware of this. So I've slightly 'nerfed' what the Ret can do (ie, I just chose not to include anything that broke the comparison n this case), pure gunnery is largely equal given the general consensus for the Retribution Macro Cannon strength is in the Petaton range (ie, not Super-Laser powerful, but vastly superior to conventional SW weaponry cannon for cannon). Also lances vary massively in strength based on what your sources are, but again, they are generally considered in the high double-digit to mid triple digit petaton range in the debates I've been involved in.

Also I have actually nerfed the capabilities of the Executor shield at long range... according to some sources it could withstand multiple hits from a Galaxy Gun (an across-system Exaton-range star killing cannon) and continuous fire from an entire fleet of warships (one or two sources claiming even another SSD could take hours taking down the shield of another)... that would put the Shield strength into unheard of levels (outside of 40K anyway)... chose not to mention any of that because, again, it's silly and breaks comparisons.
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Re: Universal ship comparisons: Executor-Class SSD vs Retribution-Class BB

Postby Rolepgeek » 29 May 2016, 20:00

I'm also gonna point out that common sense as to the basics of space combat and the story, particularly that involving the 12th Black Crusade, means it's basically impossible for those numbers to be correct, and from what I know, Black Library stuff can usually be taken with a grain of salt, particularly at the higher number levels, and especially so given it's almost all written from the Imperial perspective.

Relativistic, for example, means anywhere above 10-15% of the speed of the light. Which is damn fast. About the speed of electricity, in fact. Nova Cannons, from what I know, fire their shells at 'near-relativistic speeds' or 'a fraction of the speed of light'. Neither of which says to me, 0.9 C. And that's for the explosive rounds, not the neutronium ones. Lots of power, sure. But not super accurate, and besides which, the Planet Killer and Blackstone Fortress would be obsolete if that was true. As in, Chaos would simply have needed to get a Dominator, and they'd be killing planets five minutes after leaving the Warp near a system. And hell, if weapons batteries, whether they're laser or macro, deal with that much energy regularly, that means the power cores of the ships produce that much energy on a near-constant basis. Which means that the destruction of a Sword class Escort anywhere near a planet would scour it of life from the energy release. Somehow, I get the impression that that's not exactly what happens, though.

I mean, I don't know about using the Legends numbers, or whatever, barely know what that is, but I think common sense as to the numbers to get to 'not all worlds in the Imperium are destroyed as a side effect of minor skirmishes' is fairly reasonable. Especially with surface based anti-orbit batteries, really. The energy bleed off from those weapons would basically destroy the world every time they were fired. Meanwhile a measly 6km of adamantium and machinery is capable of withstanding these impacts?

Of course, if we want to leave common sense out of it, that's fine too, it is 40k, after all. Just pointing it out, though.

Though, Caliger, if you're going to change things from Canon, at least mention them, and why you're not factoring them in (because it makes the comparison worthless, usually, presumably).

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Re: Universal ship comparisons: Executor-Class SSD vs Retribution-Class BB

Postby CALiGeR190 » 29 May 2016, 20:26

Rolepgeek wrote:I'm also gonna point out that common sense as to the basics of space combat and the story, particularly that involving the 12th Black Crusade, means it's basically impossible for those numbers to be correct, and from what I know, Black Library stuff can usually be taken with a grain of salt, particularly at the higher number levels, and especially so given it's almost all written from the Imperial perspective.

Relativistic, for example, means anywhere above 10-15% of the speed of the light. Which is damn fast. About the speed of electricity, in fact. Nova Cannons, from what I know, fire their shells at 'near-relativistic speeds' or 'a fraction of the speed of light'. Neither of which says to me, 0.9 C. And that's for the explosive rounds, not the neutronium ones. Lots of power, sure. But not super accurate, and besides which, the Planet Killer and Blackstone Fortress would be obsolete if that was true. As in, Chaos would simply have needed to get a Dominator, and they'd be killing planets five minutes after leaving the Warp near a system. And hell, if weapons batteries, whether they're laser or macro, deal with that much energy regularly, that means the power cores of the ships produce that much energy on a near-constant basis. Which means that the destruction of a Sword class Escort anywhere near a planet would scour it of life from the energy release. Somehow, I get the impression that that's not exactly what happens, though.

I mean, I don't know about using the Legends numbers, or whatever, barely know what that is, but I think common sense as to the numbers to get to 'not all worlds in the Imperium are destroyed as a side effect of minor skirmishes' is fairly reasonable. Especially with surface based anti-orbit batteries, really. The energy bleed off from those weapons would basically destroy the world every time they were fired. Meanwhile a measly 6km of adamantium and machinery is capable of withstanding these impacts?

Of course, if we want to leave common sense out of it, that's fine too, it is 40k, after all. Just pointing it out, though.

Though, Caliger, if you're going to change things from Canon, at least mention them, and why you're not factoring them in (because it makes the comparison worthless, usually, presumably).

Beacause planets frequently are destroyed during minor skirmishes between imperial ships (according to some of what I've read, only ever unimportant worlds or planetoids) and somehow these ships survive that (sheild or no sheild) for anything up to weeks at a time. The legends and DE stuff can be equally as rediculous

Don't apply logic or common sense here, it just ends nowhere and it only gets much MUCH worse when anything anime is involved in my experience.
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Re: Universal ship comparisons: Executor-Class SSD vs Retribution-Class BB

Postby Imperator5 » 29 May 2016, 20:35

Well that can not be true to the Executor, which had its shields taken down by the rather meager Rebel fleet during the Battle of Endor.

Its possible of course that a special super-shielded variant was made later, or that the Executor's shields were faulty with a contruction flaw, or anything else.

The Black Library numbers I find realistic for a spacefaring civilsation of the Imperium's power. The problem is that all that Black crusade (Planetkiller or blackstones) stuff was written 15 years ago and thus has been outpaced by canon.
There is a strong dislike for the Black Library and for newer lore in general by the grognard wiseguy community who can't stomach the changes.

Many new books describe imperial ships having energy outputs on par with stars.

Also, it does makes sense if you consider the following:
-Voids are warp based and thus can break physics to absorb firepower of this magitude.
-Plasma reactors are said to blow so hard, close range they can blow up the attacking ship. But they don't break planets because they are implied to be warp tech too, and Dow2 orks even say that imperial plasma reactors IMPLODE, which would support this. Thus if the energy output of imperial vessels is partly warp, they would not blow up with that power.
-To me 90% of speed of light is "almost speed of light" as sources put it. 0,15 c is "not even near" light speed level by any sane standard, LOL. Sorry that is just laughable.
-The current Imperium seems to have moved up the Kardashev scale from 2 to 3. This is all totally consistent with it.
-Also, the neutronium shells are supposed to go so fast, the increase in mass with speed actually turns it into a miniature singularity. The Terminus Est survives such a shot.
-Adamantium and Ceramite are extremely durable superhero materials. No wonder that Wolverine's skeleton is made out of it. In 40k, they can take plasma fire and even melta fire. Plasma weapons are said to be 100 million Kelvins hot. That's hotter than a star's hottest parts, and meltas are supposedly HOTTER. As such, these materials are nigh-invincible by non-40k standards.
-Most 40k Space weapons have HUUUUUUGE Area of effects and relatively fast firing rates. This is what allows firing over such large light-minute distances. One of the novels describes it as bracketing the enemy in, trying to guess for days how to actually score a lot of solid hits on it until one side manages it in a "slow lethal duel". Torpedoes got a huge homing area of thousands of kilomterers (basically ship base by boardgame), and plasma weapons explode in miniature novas, macrocannon shells can be set to blow , even lances and las batteries can be "swept" over a large line even by the smallest of barrel movements in the briefest of times.
-Common sense does not really impact the hyper-advanced technology the Imperium has, because a lot of it is from the Dark Age of Technology, and as thus so far above what we can do today that it is incomprehensible. Like how Megas XLR never runs out of ammunition. Or how Necron technology works. And that's before we get to the straight down unscientific fantasy of Vulcan telepathy, Force, Warp, and all that.
-There is no rule saying that the weapons would bleed energy into the atmosphere. In fact it is very likely that melta weapons have a containtment field to protect the firer from frying. One Dow2 melta has the space marine "lowering it" until it cooks unarmoured foes near him (giving him a melee damage reduction instead of an AOE damage though, that would have been cool) .

As for the planet Killer, maybe its gun can overwhelm planetery shields instantly (Death Star had the same thing). In fact, it is blissfully easy to glass a planet, even the TOS Enterprise can do it. The problem lies when the planet is protected.

As to why are not planets blown up left and right? Because that blows up whatever they are worth fighting over for. This stands for 40k as well as Star wars. Alderaan was basically a big noble playhouse without much industrial capability. They would not have blown up ... Kuat or Fondor so easily, because of invested shipyards.

You are all also having no idea realistically, just how easy it is to bomb a planet to ruin by a ship.
A Sword, an ISD, or even a Galaxy class.. lets say D'Deridex Warbird, since Federation is really not trigger happy, can easily, LAUGHABLY EASILY wipe all life from an unprotected planet.
Their weapons are rapid fire and can sustain enough power to burn the crust of a planet in a short time period (matter of days) until there is nothing left but charred ruins.
This is not as impressive as massive superweapon making the planet go boom, but it is just as apocalyptic to the inhabitants.
You know the Dinosaurs? What happened to them is next to nothing compared to what weaker spaceships can unleash on a planet.
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Re: Universal ship comparisons: Executor-Class SSD vs Retribution-Class BB

Postby Rolepgeek » 29 May 2016, 22:21

I get that with enough time any ship can Exterminatus. My point is that the Planet Killer is redundant if escorts can destroy entire populations with single shots. As much as we make fun of Abbadon, the Planet Killer was built for a reason, and called such for a reason. 'Because it looks cool' is not the answer, either.

Your hostility really isn't that great, either. 90% of the speed of light is almost the speed of light, you're correct. But 15% of the speed of light is still considered relativistic(and I think you're underestimating just how fast that is), because that's where non-relativistic calculations begin to break down. Kardashev scale III essentially means the civilization controls the entire galaxy, handily, and well enough to harness the energy output of every single star.

My point concerning why planets aren't being blown up literally every time is because the side with less investment in capturing the planet can literally just interpose themselves between their enemy and the planet, and they can't be fired at if you don't want to risk blowing the shit out of the planet, too. Also, power creep in novels=/=good, nor necessarily accurate, especially because it's power creep, and that's how propaganda works.

But I mean, hey, it's all about how you interpret it, so we could all be right. Again, propaganda, so who knows what's right or what's wrong?

I mean, for the purposes of this, it seems like figuring out what statistics would actually make it an interesting comparison instead of '40k curbstomp' would be nice. Though, I suppose we could probably start comparing Culture warships to Imperial Warships, if they actually use those levels of power.


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