"Wing" things on vessels

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Imperator5
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Re: "Wing" things on vessels

Postby Imperator5 » 25 June 2016, 15:47

Drakki wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:
Drakki wrote:How about cyclonic torpedo launchers :P?


Heh those are usually done from regular launchers, and usually are not carried on vessels that are not Fleet flagships or SM or =I= vessels. So than only battleships would have it :) .

The fact why they are not used in ship to ship combat is that the propulsion part is smaller, the warhead part much larger, and thus they are so slow that they make a specially easy target for enemies to intercept, and are too rare to waste in such a manner.

As the Ilyaden (or anothe Eldar?) suppelement shows, they are a good thing to shoot at Craftworlds though! :D


Well then since the creators of the game(TT) and ships failed in this manner I will continue to assume those barrels are some parts of the ships system for peace of mind sake :P But it is confirmed Nova cannons are rail gun's ( just like non-plasma macros batteries, there is a schematic of it in one of the rulebooks inside the ship) so I cannot personally agree that they are those, more like torpedo launchers or something.


Well not all railguns are nova cannons. Just as not all land projectile weapons are bolters or Quake cannons! (Novas are giant railguns of apocalyptic power , yeah)
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Imperator5
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Re: "Wing" things on vessels

Postby Imperator5 » 25 June 2016, 16:21

Drakki wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:
Well not all railguns are nova cannons. Just as not all land projectile weapons are bolters or Quake cannons! (Novas are giant railguns of apocalyptic power , yeah)


Well of course I didn't mean to imply they were :P It just meant to imply rail guns are one of the Imperiums best "common" weapon system, in comparison to something like a long range plasma battery or a lance.


Oh in that you are absolutely right. They are more flexible as you can give them different ammunition (FFG has melta and AP rounds) while their only drawback is that they need ammo stores and are ammo reliant so that when megazines blow up they deal a lot of damage, but missile/torpedo/nova and even plasma hydrogen fuel cells do the same.

Only laser weaponry does not, but those put a much bigger strain on the power systems of the ship (and the plasma reactor too I guess) so they got their own drawback. Plus if they store energy in powercells instead of always drawing from the reactor (Which would let them fire even if the powersupply is cut for a few minutse) those can blow too!
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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: "Wing" things on vessels

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 26 June 2016, 00:12

Imperator5 wrote:They are giant railguns according to some books. So basically macrocannons. Imperials and Orks got them alongside some SM.

I'll try to mod them in.

Chaos also has side-batteries that don't shoot.

The downward portruding I think are Warp Vanes that are somehow tried to warp travel.

The upper "towers" are sensors I think.


I'm sooo looking forward to it. For those side batteries I think I know what you meant, they resemble small turrets that are in banks below macro batteries, I thought they are point defense turrets but in game they do not "fire" in the sense of having firing animation protruding from them. They have quite some modding potential, if only they can be animated...

Anyway, it seems that whomever designed the ship models inserted big railguns that were supposed to be very powerful, at the cost of only being able to fire forward, which is a fair trade-off, especially since at large distances aiming via ship manoeuvring is about as efficient as normal turrets.

But then GW thought that making line battles in space is more befitting of the Imperium and they didn't get any oficial rules.
I remember from my short time in Mass Effect universe that it's how their battleships worked too, first engagement was at very large distance (though 40k Imperium laughs at such distances), using massive, ship-length railcannons. As both fleets approach each other aiming via ships becomes inefficient and ships started turning broadsides towards the enemy.

This would be quite a good idea tbh, such railguns would be catastrophically powerful but overall their damage output would be smaller then all the amassed broadside batteries, so Imperium would still prefer to get in close, unless they strategically preferred not to close in.

I like the fluff-wise explanation that they could be weapons whose technology has been totally (or almost totally) lost, and they are no longer used on old vessels but admech keeps copy-pasting them into newer vessels just in case some machine spirits malfunctioned in case they removed them. Seems like reasonable explanation for 40k, though I'd love to see them back in action.
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Re: "Wing" things on vessels

Postby Imperator5 » 26 June 2016, 06:31

Honestly ship railguns are just macrocannons. They can make macrocannons , can't they? They can even make the bigger, badder Nova cannons. So lost tech is doubtful, especially after in the latest BL books the upped the Admech competence a lot (Mechanicum, Titanicus, X of Mars series, the Skitarii war books) .

Luckily the new Ork Zapp turret addon shows that new weapon modules can be added.

I do not want them any more powerful than the standard macrocannons with 90 forward arc of fire and 9k range.
The escort type will be a single light macro. Think of the Sword's dorsal mount, just single-shot.
The Strike/Light cruiser will be the same just with 5 shots.
The Battle/Cruiser ones will be like cruiser macros, just firing 1 shot.
The Battleship/Battlebarge will be like the same macros just firing 5 shots.

The design decision over this is that it offers limited prow firepower to Imperial ships, should they take a "defense show our prow" stance . As with orks its just moar dakka.

Chaos ships also got unused "lascannon" barrels sticking out of their broadsides, with 3 twin linked pairs per Macrobattery, Hybrid battery or Lance Battery.
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Re: "Wing" things on vessels

Postby Emperorvalse » 01 November 2016, 01:08

I remember a GW BFG designer stated that they were originally to be forward arc weapons as part of the design speci for the models but during the balancing race theming stage it was dropped.
After that they were either telling people, sensors or that they are the weapons for planet attacks so therefore cannot be used for space battles.
I like the idea that they are planet attack weapons, because well how can a light cruiser achieve the same effects as a battleship during the planetary assault mission?

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Re: "Wing" things on vessels

Postby Imperator5 » 02 November 2016, 06:46

Emperorvalse wrote:I remember a GW BFG designer stated that they were originally to be forward arc weapons as part of the design speci for the models but during the balancing race theming stage it was dropped.
After that they were either telling people, sensors or that they are the weapons for planet attacks so therefore cannot be used for space battles.
I like the idea that they are planet attack weapons, because well how can a light cruiser achieve the same effects as a battleship during the planetary assault mission?


BFG designers were bad and they should feel bad about it.
Those are clearly barrels, so any non weapon explanation is bollocks.

Forward narrow arc weapons are a great idea for IN, it would let their prow armour be somewhat useful.

The bombardment weapon idea is less stupid than the rest but it still falls short:
-Those weapons are fixed arc. For a bombardment you are best off with an easier to aim turret weapon, unless those launch guided projectiles like Cyclonic torpedoes. Also knowing how good 40k ship weapons are, the size of those barrels indicate that the wing cannons would be too powerful for ground support bombardment. This theory could work if only Battleships or ships that carried cyclonic torpedoes and other exterminatus armaments would have them.
-There are "bombardment weapons" in 40k I'm sure, designed to be less lethal but more accurate than the ship-to-ship weapons meant for precise orbital support, but this is just a theory by me based on scant evidence like DoW1-2 orbital bombardment, which seems to be a precision laser-grav weapon that holds enemy units it comes across and is super accurate.
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Re: "Wing" things on vessels

Postby Emperorvalse » 02 November 2016, 22:19

As I said I prefer the "bombardment" theory myself.
For bombardments I would not really expect the ships doing it to be involved in a space battle, which is ironic as that is exactly the scenario in the BFG game, but able to point prow down, best armour against possible planet based weaponry, and take time to aim and fire.
Anyway BGF, like MoW were games designed by "apprentice" GW designers lead by an senior level designer, as a way to develop staff for their core games WH40K or WH. Well it was back in the day 20+ years ago when I played GW games. I believe the game was rushed, models were developed before the final ship rules specs were signed off hence why lots of the models do not reflect the ship stats in the TT.
Prow weapons for IN would be in keeping with the theme, especially if you look at the MoW counterparts of galleys, they could stay stationary pivoting to aim the forward arc weapons wearing the enemy down, absorbing hits on their strong frontal armour, then go in for the kill via a ram or short range broadside.

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Bosie
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Re: "Wing" things on vessels

Postby Bosie » 10 January 2017, 16:11

They could also be some sort of device that helps with warp travel...
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Re: "Wing" things on vessels

Postby Ashardalon » 10 January 2017, 16:29

sensors make more sense to me since port maw also has those on it
although that can just be reusing assets since making custom ones for a massive structure like port maw would be a lot of effort
there are also similar tubes hidden behind the forward shield of most imperial ships, most easily noticeable in the dauntless

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Re: "Wing" things on vessels

Postby Imperator5 » 12 January 2017, 11:34

Ashardalon wrote:sensors make more sense to me since port maw also has those on it
although that can just be reusing assets since making custom ones for a massive structure like port maw would be a lot of effort
there are also similar tubes hidden behind the forward shield of most imperial ships, most easily noticeable in the dauntless


A lot of assets have been reused in game. Especially for orks. This is to be expected since these are high quality models and it is a reasonable way to save time and money in reusing already made models and textures.
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