Matchmacking

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Lord451
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Re: Matchmacking

Postby Lord451 » 15 March 2016, 23:07

I'm glad there's something here, but it's still ridiculously frustrating to play many game types against higher leveled opponents. An extra light cruiser doesn't make up for the difference between having 5 ships with 1 skill each versus 4 ships with with 3 skills, plus a favor, plus hardware improvements.

Because there's no accountability at all for ships simply being better than other ships with upgrades, battles will never be even when there's any difference. And almost anybody can tell you, especially in an RTS, small numbers of easier to control things are better than a horde of garbage.

Combine this with punishing the loser and there's 0 incentive for me to fight an uphill battle. I see somebody else has favors on more than 1 light cruiser or on a cruiser or above and I just leave.

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Shaftoe
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Re: Matchmacking

Postby Shaftoe » 16 March 2016, 17:17

The point is... to ring almost equal parties to the table for random game.

In custom game players should be free at 100% making their multiplayer matches with each other.


Also, I hope you'll increase the number of players... 4 from one side and 4 from another.
"There is no such thing as innocence, merely variety of degrees of guilt" - Inquisitorial motto.

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ofteno
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Re: Matchmacking

Postby ofteno » 16 March 2016, 20:25

i dont have battlecruisers, yet i faced 2 mars and a dominator

i knew something was wrong the moment the points jumped lol
"There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court, a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty." Inquisitor Lord Fyodor Karamazov

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ANBAL534
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Re: Matchmacking

Postby ANBAL534 » 19 March 2016, 13:05

ofteno wrote:i dont have battlecruisers, yet i faced 2 mars and a dominator

i knew something was wrong the moment the points jumped lol


Yeah, I also hadn't a battleship and my battlecruiser was in repair and I got against a Battleship and 2 Battlecruisers, it was awful and happen to me yet a couple of times.

Jools
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Re: Matchmacking

Postby Jools » 20 March 2016, 07:31

Lord451 wrote:Because there's no accountability at all for ships simply being better than other ships with upgrades, battles will never be even when there's any difference. And almost anybody can tell you, especially in an RTS, small numbers of easier to control things are better than a horde of garbage.


I think the problem is actually a bit deeper than this and the idea of just adding on a few extra points to account for rank differences is pretty deeply flawed in a game with persistent progression. As far as I can see, there are a few issues:

1) Lower ranked players will have fewer ship slots and are more likely to have difficulty filling out a 300 or 400 point game if even one or two of their ships are out of action. There's this kind of dead zone after you level up where you're suddenly playing higher point games, but you may not actually have the ships to fill out those games unless you've been completely foregoing upgrades. What this means is that lower ranked players can't actually USE the extra points they're given except on escorts.

2) A lot of those extra points are going to be lost, which makes them completely useless as a handicap system. Let's say I'm playing a 400 point game against someone three levels higher than me. That means I get 15% extra points, or 60 points. That buys me one escort of any type, with around one quarter to one third of those extra points wasted. If the other person is one level higher than me, I don't even get enough points to buy a single escort. I might be able to change my list around to waste fewer points, but that brings me back around to my first point: if I'm a lower level player, I probably have fewer options to begin with.

3) The points system doesn't account for upgraded ships, and that's a huge, huge problem. This is an issue even at low levels. A level 5 Dauntless with an AdMech favor, two active skills, two upgrades, and multiple crew skills has the same point value as a level 1 Dauntless. That's crazy, and it can't be easily fixed by point handicaps. Campaign ships with upgrades in tabletop always had their points values increased to account for the fact that the ship was now more effective, and tabletop upgrades were a lot less effective than some of what's available in Armada.

As an aside, I actually think the third point also limits fleet variety somewhat. You always want your ships to be as upgraded as possible right now, because doing so effectively reduces their cost. If a base ship is at an appropriate power level for its point cost, each upgrade makes it TOO powerful for its point cost. If upgraded ships cost more points, there might be a place for lists that emphasized cheap "stock" ships in higher numbers over fewer highly upgraded ones. As it is now, you just always want to bring your best ships and you're at a clear disadvantage if those ships are out of action.

Basically, multiplayer is very unfriendly at the moment to low- and mid-level players. Since there are too few ways to use your deployment points, and since the point system fails to capture the edge given by ship upgrades, lower level players will always be at an unfair disadvantage before skill is even taken into account. That's exactly the opposite of what a handicap system should be trying to accomplish.

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Bylak
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Re: Matchmacking

Postby Bylak » 22 March 2016, 04:26

Since it's all the rage these days, will you be able to rank games you play/players you play against at some point? Will it have any kind of effect on ranking?
Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!

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averageintelligence
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Re: Matchmacking

Postby averageintelligence » 30 March 2016, 01:33

If you are going with the elo system is there some way to let us players know kinda like in CS:GO (nova gold nova bla bla bla) what our ELO rank is but in a 40k lore friendly way?
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Lyteros
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Re: Matchmacking

Postby Lyteros » 30 March 2016, 12:44

Matchmaking and ELO calculation aside (thank the emperor, gork, mork, the chaos gods, the c'tan, the greater good and whoever I forgot... this is 1v1 and not MOBA style 5v5 blobs where you can be dragged to elohell by trolls or a few bad luck games in a row)

1) I think there is a fundamental problem with not modifying point costs of ship per upgrade.
Example: Admech light imperial cruisers with only level 4(or5?) will come to 2 abilities and 3 upgrades. This will wreck fleets of unupgraded light cruisers because of their massive utilty advantage.
Levels and Abilities need to be calculated into the ships value.
And the Point value summary should go up as whole depending on player levels, to offset increasing ship values.
Like a "normal" 400 point game between level 5 players should probably get +25% bonus for each side to account for modified ships (or you cant use ships with a few upgrades after a while... imagine two light cruisers is all you can put down on 400 points due to upgrade modifiers). This will also help newer players, since they can just field more ships to offset higher level ships.

2) You do not have enough ship slots for the battlevalue it puts you up to. If you had a bad round and half your fleet is burning or lost in warp and you pull a 600 point game, which due to level difference might jump to 660, and now you got 2 light cruisers to fill the points against a battleship and 3 cruisers... The escort spam just wont work without beeing ork.
I think we need another ship slot for each class. Then you can at least have a bit of choice about your fleet composition without needing an entirely new admiral and you wont become worthless for 1-2 runs after you got bad luck... alternatively it will work to just scale the engagement depending on available ships. If I only have 300 points that are not burning, I shouldn't pull 600+ point games.
(Someone who brings only 2 battleships to 600+ points will soon see how he gets wrecked by boarding action spam form smaller ships)

3) The current idea of modifying points by level difference could also be applied as handycap when no good ELO match is found and lower ELO has to play with a higher one.

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Sagranda
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Re: Matchmacking

Postby Sagranda » 31 March 2016, 12:16

Ravensburg wrote:Hey guys,

I owe you a few explanations about the matchmacking.

The matchmacking is supposed to match players with the same ELO, because yes there's a hidden ELO. Sadly the Elo system is not working at the moment and everyone have 0 ELO. Good news is that you don't have to wait very long before finding a match, the bad one is that you may match high admiral level players and get stomped hard. Quite frustrating i must admit...

What we're going to do is to fix the ELO system and take into account the admiral level in matchmacking in order to first match players with the closest admiral rank then the closest ELO.

Beside that, there's a security system regarding admiral level differences that is working but having no feedbacks, so most of you didn't noticed it.

For each level of difference you get between you and your opponent, the lowest admiral rating player get a 5% bonus fleet points.
IE: in a cruiser clash, you are level 3 and the matchmacking put you against a level 8 admiral.... rude... but, as your level 3 the cruiser clash will be set at 400 fleet points. As you have 5 levels of difference between you and your opponent you will get 25% bonus fleet points. So you have 500 points and your opponents get 400 points.

Hope this make sense to you, we're working hard to fix all this.

Thanks!

Ravensburg


Is there an ETA on when the Elo-System will be implemented.
While it is "good" to get faster into games, it heavily skewers the actual feedback one can give about balance.
The great majority of my games feel so heavily mismatched, that I have problems to really say if it was a balance between factions/ships thing, or that the skill-difference was way too high.


One example:
Some think that the Chaos vs. Orkz match-up is fair, because they are able to close in without taunt.
Having played both sides of the match-up, also without taunt, I think it definitely leans towards Chaos in terms of who has the upper hand.

Now is the question: How high were the skill-differences for both sides in those matches?
Did I just outplay my opponents because they were worse than me and was it the same for the other guy, or is the match-up actually even.
Right now this is very hard to say, since there's no "ranking system" and therefor appropriate feedback isn't really possible, but only assumptions based on those probably mismatched match-ups.
I play Orkz to collect all those salty Imperial tears
#FeelsWaaaghBoss

NihilisticGod
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Re: Matchmacking

Postby NihilisticGod » 01 April 2016, 01:52

Ravensburg wrote:What we're going to do is to fix the ELO system and take into account the admiral level in matchmacking in order to first match players with the closest admiral rank then the closest ELO.

Will make for a nicer leveling experience 1 - 7 because currently one just has to suck it up when outmatched. Once you reach level 8 admiral there could be a significant difference in the battles even though each side has access to all their ship slots since upgrades, skills and favours don't factor into the points cost or otherwise have a cost attributed to them for matchmaking purposes. I guess it evens out when you have max out your fleet.

Ravensburg wrote:For each level of difference you get between you and your opponent, the lowest admiral rating player get a 5% bonus fleet points.


This seems meager compensation for going up against some one who potentially has the pick of a fleet of maxed out ships. I guess when the ELO works as above then this won't matter anymore?

I was also wondering if we will get a Leaderboard for multiplayer at some point? Figured the matchmaking thread was a good place to ask.


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