Unit points, they are frustrating. Lets make them customisable.

Share your ideas and suggestions for Battlefleet Gothic: Armada.
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Atherius
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Re: Unit points, they are frustrating. Lets make them customisable.

Postby Atherius » 04 May 2016, 03:46

I much agree with the OP. And as he mentioned Imperials, but also Orks and Chaos I'd say, have an easier time adjusting their fleets because they have greater fleet diversity. I argued after their introduction to the Beta that the Eldar should have a greater fleet diversity or it would affect the gameplay and the long-term playability or longevity of the faction.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2131

With fleet diversity the Eldar players would have a wider amount of choice and addaptability.

That said; yeah, this doesn't solve the issues right now conserning scaling and points. Eldar diversity would be a positive change however.

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XViper
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Re: Unit points, they are frustrating. Lets make them customisable.

Postby XViper » 04 May 2016, 04:30

You're absolutely right.
One of the main reasons the 'point issue' is an issue at all, is that the lack of fleet diversity compounds this issue.

If any other race want to take a Battlecruiser and Cruiser in 300 points, they can by choosing the ships that fit. However Eldar have no option, because they literally have 1 BC or Cruiser choice, meaning their available fleet combinations to fit into a particular point pool are extremely limited and linear.

Adding fleet diversity would assist in this problem; although I still strongly feel the entire point & fleet construction mechanic needs to be completely overhauled to provide customization.

If I want my ship to have Micro Warp Jump, then I should have to pay the points to install that module/upgrade on my ship.
If I'm running low on points, I should be able to remove an upgrade I may have chosen initially to make my ship cost less, so I can fit in that extra escort I might want instead.
Just like it's worked in all the Tabletop games, and this is one mechanic that would not have any problems adapting to a video game.
It's intuitive, its balanced, its customisable.... it just makes sense.

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Atherius
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Re: Unit points, they are frustrating. Lets make them customisable.

Postby Atherius » 04 May 2016, 11:21

Say there existed a button, which you could only press once per battle, and to balance its existence there would be a slightly negative aspect as well.

+25 points.

It would give you +25 points for your fleet to make things fit. However, you will earn -25 points from the battle result. Why? Or else everyone will be doing it all the time. If you do it every battle you will earn 100 less points in 4 battles, that is quite an income nerf. At the same time, that one battle one really wants to take that combination that costs 5, 10 or 20 points too much, here is your chance.

Not a sollution to the point scaling of ships, but again, perhaps a step in the right direction?

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Re: Unit points, they are frustrating. Lets make them customisable.

Postby gugo123 » 05 May 2016, 02:03

Atherius wrote:Say there existed a button, which you could only press once per battle, and to balance its existence there would be a slightly negative aspect as well.

+25 points.

It would give you +25 points for your fleet to make things fit. However, you will earn -25 points from the battle result. Why? Or else everyone will be doing it all the time. If you do it every battle you will earn 100 less points in 4 battles, that is quite an income nerf. At the same time, that one battle one really wants to take that combination that costs 5, 10 or 20 points too much, here is your chance.

Not a sollution to the point scaling of ships, but again, perhaps a step in the right direction?

I really like this idea. Not all combinations require extra points, but this would alleviate the main gripe with "a few points to many".

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TheWorldSmith
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Re: Unit points, they are frustrating. Lets make them customisable.

Postby TheWorldSmith » 05 May 2016, 04:59

I recommend the OP takes a look at this thread, it may be of interest to them:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1476
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realize that you have no right to let them live!" - Exterminatus Extremis, M41

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XViper
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Re: Unit points, they are frustrating. Lets make them customisable.

Postby XViper » 05 May 2016, 10:30

Thanks WorldSmith, I hadn't seen that.
Some good reading, and good points made over there as well...

It's good to know that similar points were brought up over a month ago, and they still decided to do nothing about it. {sarcasm}

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Deuzerre
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Re: Unit points, they are frustrating. Lets make them customisable.

Postby Deuzerre » 05 May 2016, 11:36

Grimnir wrote:Yeah that is a bit strange. But correct me if I'm wrong: Won't the underdog in a MP match get bonus points to spend?

Only the admiral's level difference provides bonus points, not the ship experience/upgrades.

A player that just reached level 8 vs a player with fully favoured fleet will fight with the same points.
"Common sense isn't as common as the name would imply"

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Bosie
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Re: Unit points, they are frustrating. Lets make them customisable.

Postby Bosie » 05 May 2016, 21:38

Many people on the forums have been asking for this for a long time. So far no joy sadly.
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Atherius
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Re: Unit points, they are frustrating. Lets make them customisable.

Postby Atherius » 06 May 2016, 03:41

One can hope change happens still.

Matches should have some options to adjust them, even if they aren't custom matches. Eldar, though other threads are right in that they need to be rebalanced, they could also do with diversity. Diversity would allow Eldar to tweak their ships, it actually enables better game balance*. I could argue that custom games needs to be far more customisable. And as mentioned in another thread persistant in that they would grant xp and income gains.

* One of the problems with Eldar power is that their ships have to fulfill two different roles at least, and the best excample is the battlecruiser. Compare it to the two Imperial and Chaos ones and you will see they each fulfill a different role. One is a heavy combatant, the other is a support carrier. Orc battlecruisers can become anything. The Eldar on the other hand only have one battlecruiser, and as a result it has to be good at both tasks. It is a carrier. It is also a deadly assault ship. Diversity really would help rebalance the Eldar as ships could become more specialized, fulfilling mostly a single role.

As for changing ship point costs taking into consideration the amount of upgrades, in the end this would be... impractical. Unless we can actually have larger battles of more than 700 points, it would simply result in even smaller battles with fewer ships as ships grew more and more expensive. Do we really want even smaller battles?

Ah well, i digress.

There really should be a way to adjust battles, especially their point settings. Other games, such as the Total War games, have had adjustable army values in many of their games. Why cannot Battlefleet Gothic have adjustable point settings going from 100- to say a 1000 or even more?

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XViper
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Re: Unit points, they are frustrating. Lets make them customisable.

Postby XViper » 06 May 2016, 04:24

Atherius wrote:As for changing ship point costs taking into consideration the amount of upgrades, in the end this would be... impractical. Unless we can actually have larger battles of more than 700 points, it would simply result in even smaller battles with fewer ships as ships grew more and more expensive. Do we really want even smaller battles?


Giving people choice isn't really impractical.
Larger battles is most definitely the answer to many problems.
However with making skills and upgrades cost points, doesn't imply the 'base' cost of a ship shouldn't also be reduced. Everything can be balanced out.
You would also limit the number of skills and upgrades certain ships can take of course.
However if I want to run 1 Cruiser with 3 upgrades, and another Cruiser with 1 upgrade, I should be able to.
If I want to take a 20 ship fleet with minimal upgrades, or a 6 ship fleet with maximum upgrades, I should be able to.
If I want to pay 50 points for a powerful Battleship upgrade, or only 5-10 points for a minor one, I should be able to.
Just like I can in any Tabletop equivalents!

Atherius wrote:There really should be a way to adjust battles, especially their point settings. Other games, such as the Total War games, have had adjustable army values in many of their games. Why cannot Battlefleet Gothic have adjustable point settings going from 100- to say a 1000 or even more?


Agree 100%.


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