Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

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Imperator5
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Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Imperator5 » 18 April 2016, 04:51

Kadaeux wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:
Kadaeux wrote:
No, they're not.



That speaks more to the player's ability, not to the faction being in any way broken, given the amount of Eldar ship's i've blown apart with all of those.


You must really be facing off the worst of the worst.


I think the same about anyone who have to face people that constantly complain about them being "instant win". The fact people are too inept to adjust to a different style of fighting to deal with the Eldar is the source of the problem, not any imbalance in the Eldar.

The fact is that they're FAR from overpowered like most people seem to believe is the case. (Note, I'm not saying they're underpowered either.)


Could you please provide any reasoning how they are not overpowered?
-Their holofields protect from standard weaponry.
-They are too fast to be targeted by abilities that their holofields don't get.
-Their pulsars deal burst damage that is equivalent to totally accurate and longer ranged ork mega cannon.
-Their favours give them +20 Troop value, negating LS weakness, or instant-through shields GUARANTEED LS (Orks were bashed for having a Shokk attack gun that mostly fails to succeed) or bonus FIFTY PERCENT stealth damage. Can apply to said pulsars.
-Carriers? Darkstar ability negates them all.

There is no adjusting to their "style" even if one has to tailor their entire fleet to fight them, since any cooldown ability that twarts their attacks has 3-6 times the cooldown of their lances.
Shield overcharge may protect against lances, but only once for every 4 passes.
Scaring them off with a bomb (not damaging them, mind) can only happen for every 6 passes, IF the eldar player goes full retard and bunches the ship together.
And even if it worked, such a fleet would be vulnerable to the other 2 race. Where do I get my renown to always specify my fleet against the enemy I clairvoyantly know I'll be fighting?
Taunt? All eldar has to do is set facing to broadside, countered.
Ramming? Something that fast? Perhaps if eldar player goes AFK.

There are 4 things an eldar player needs to do for instant victory:
-Darkstar fighters.
-Avoid slow AOEs, rams and such. Burst out of it.
-Take pulsars.
-Set facing to broadside.

There all done.
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Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby TheGoldenChicken » 18 April 2016, 05:32

Kadaeux wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:They are an instant win faction, they are not like the other factions. Other factions can loose without the eldar player having to go AFK.


No, they're not.

Their burst is long enough to save them from literally ANY aoe.
Torps? Check. Ramming? Check. Novas? check. Bombs? Check. They don't even need boost to get out of all those, except for Novas when the damn Novas actually hit, they are aimed by stromtroopers anyway.


That speaks more to the player's ability, not to the faction being in any way broken, given the amount of Eldar ship's i've blown apart with all of those.


I'm interested, what strategy did you use to beat said Eldar? Did it by any chance involve very large amounts of ramming?

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Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby rogal dorn » 18 April 2016, 06:27

yes I've had cruisers wiped in one salvo and I think the elder are too powerful and their gaming is 2Dimensional its actually boring to fight them most of the time I`m waiting for the countdown to allow me to warp out (especially when using chaos)
I`m only beginning with the game and I`m sick of fighting elder already, with enemies having so much more experience I can never catch up

the problem is people say use taunt and ram .. well it doesn't work especially when they have micro warp jump, and ramming is easily avoided by elder generally, add to this they avoid 90% of hits and as long as they keep moving there's no real danger other than other elder players
why because when your starting out renown is so important but I`m finding chaos and imperium cant build any because of the one trick pony elder and ships destroyed don't gain experience (that's really bad btw) so I cant progress.. which means your creating food for elder players, and once bored, people will leave the game

improvements for the future for the eldar
well I would like to see the following
upgrades for the ships in terms of weapons (star cannons, bright lances etc)
upgrades such as aspect warriors (who might target specific areas of a ship, not just the avatar who would destroy random stuff)
psychic powers like one that might turn an enemy ship in a different direction

general improvements needed chaos need better line of sight so they can actually use their range because they have nothing to bring an enemy forward, other than elder who you know are coming to you.. so hide in a gas cloud and warp out
this results in chaos having to get too close and by then all the other races have their advantages in their favour

I think each class of ship needs a different Troop value as well (not just a race value) which would make you choose who to board and lightning strike against

please remember I've only just started so haters your just boring and probably already playing eldar
Last edited by rogal dorn on 18 April 2016, 07:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Kine² » 18 April 2016, 06:39

Bosie wrote:I'll post this in this thread too, as I am yet to see any evidence that holos especilay when combined with pulsars are balanced in any way. If you find fault with my math please tell me and show me.


I think when Devs balanced Eldars internally they did so with Eldars being AI and their testers playing non Eldar factions. That's the only explanation I could come up with with regards to your calcs Bosie.

Human players versus Eldar AI is ok and should serve well enough for SP and campaign.

But multiplayer ... O M F G

All Tindalos have to do is upgrade their AI to properly use pulsar hit and runs + Shuriken ramming tanks then people would start to see balance peeling off even in SP.
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Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Kadaeux » 18 April 2016, 07:34

TheGoldenChicken wrote:I'm interested, what strategy did you use to beat said Eldar? Did it by any chance involve very large amounts of ramming?


Rams, Massed Torpedos, Teleport Assaults with generator priorities, occasionally using bombs etc.

Imperator5 wrote:Could you please provide any reasoning how they are not overpowered?
a-Their holofields protect from standard weaponry.
b-They are too fast to be targeted by abilities that their holofields don't get.
c-Their pulsars deal burst damage that is equivalent to totally accurate and longer ranged ork mega cannon.
d-Their favours give them +20 Troop value, negating LS weakness, or instant-through shields GUARANTEED LS (Orks were bashed for having a Shokk attack gun that mostly fails to succeed) or bonus FIFTY PERCENT stealth damage. Can apply to said pulsars.
e-Carriers? Darkstar ability negates them all.

There is no adjusting to their "style" even if one has to tailor their entire fleet to fight them, since any cooldown ability that twarts their attacks has 3-6 times the cooldown of their lances.
Shield overcharge may protect against lances, but only once for every 4 passes.
Scaring them off with a bomb (not damaging them, mind) can only happen for every 6 passes, IF the eldar player goes full retard and bunches the ship together.
And even if it worked, such a fleet would be vulnerable to the other 2 race. Where do I get my renown to always specify my fleet against the enemy I clairvoyantly know I'll be fighting?
Taunt? All eldar has to do is set facing to broadside, countered.
Ramming? Something that fast? Perhaps if eldar player goes AFK.

There are 4 things an eldar player needs to do for instant victory:
-Darkstar fighters.
-Avoid slow AOEs, rams and such. Burst out of it.
-Take pulsars.
-Set facing to broadside.

There all done.


Yes. All done pretending you know everything.
A: It MOSTLY protects against regular weapons, and despite the number crunching trying to claim it'd take 25 minutes to gun down eldar ships, the practical result is that it doesn't take near that long. Yes you can cite numbers all day long, i'll take actual gameplay experience over that.
B: Yes, often, but not always.
C: And only overpowered if you have the Battleship AND both Battlecruisers. BUT bear in mind, though I don't think they're overpowered in and of themselves I would still prefer them to work more like the TT Pulsars instead of this activated ability.
D: The troop Favour's problem isn't the +20, but the lore-shattering Avatar of Khaine nonsense, the Ulthwe favour, yes does largely negate their vulnerability to deep strikes, the Ranger strike is... in my experience on both sides, largely worthless a match is almost always decided before it even finishes cooling down for the first use and the stealth hasn't been a large factor in matches i've played.

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Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby TheGoldenChicken » 18 April 2016, 07:53

Kadaeux wrote:
TheGoldenChicken wrote:I'm interested, what strategy did you use to beat said Eldar? Did it by any chance involve very large amounts of ramming?


Rams, Massed Torpedos, Teleport Assaults with generator priorities, occasionally using bombs etc.

To be fair, you didn't use any conventional weapons, and that's my problem with Eldar. Just because I'm fighting Eldar, shouldn't mean my batteries of macrocannons should be useless.

Imperator5 wrote:Could you please provide any reasoning how they are not overpowered?
a-Their holofields protect from standard weaponry.
b-They are too fast to be targeted by abilities that their holofields don't get.
c-Their pulsars deal burst damage that is equivalent to totally accurate and longer ranged ork mega cannon.
d-Their favours give them +20 Troop value, negating LS weakness, or instant-through shields GUARANTEED LS (Orks were bashed for having a Shokk attack gun that mostly fails to succeed) or bonus FIFTY PERCENT stealth damage. Can apply to said pulsars.
e-Carriers? Darkstar ability negates them all.

There is no adjusting to their "style" even if one has to tailor their entire fleet to fight them, since any cooldown ability that twarts their attacks has 3-6 times the cooldown of their lances.
Shield overcharge may protect against lances, but only once for every 4 passes.
Scaring them off with a bomb (not damaging them, mind) can only happen for every 6 passes, IF the eldar player goes full retard and bunches the ship together.
And even if it worked, such a fleet would be vulnerable to the other 2 race. Where do I get my renown to always specify my fleet against the enemy I clairvoyantly know I'll be fighting?
Taunt? All eldar has to do is set facing to broadside, countered.
Ramming? Something that fast? Perhaps if eldar player goes AFK.

There are 4 things an eldar player needs to do for instant victory:
-Darkstar fighters.
-Avoid slow AOEs, rams and such. Burst out of it.
-Take pulsars.
-Set facing to broadside.

There all done.


Yes. All done pretending you know everything.
A: It MOSTLY protects against regular weapons, and despite the number crunching trying to claim it'd take 25 minutes to gun down eldar ships, the practical result is that it doesn't take near that long. Yes you can cite numbers all day long, i'll take actual gameplay experience over that.
B: Yes, often, but not always.
C: And only overpowered if you have the Battleship AND both Battlecruisers. BUT bear in mind, though I don't think they're overpowered in and of themselves I would still prefer them to work more like the TT Pulsars instead of this activated ability.
D: The troop Favour's problem isn't the +20, but the lore-shattering Avatar of Khaine nonsense, the Ulthwe favour, yes does largely negate their vulnerability to deep strikes, the Ranger strike is... in my experience on both sides, largely worthless a match is almost always decided before it even finishes cooling down for the first use and the stealth hasn't been a large factor in matches i've played.


In my opinion, you are actually the one pretending he knows not everything, but more than he actually does.

How can number crunching be worse than actual gameplay experience? The guy was letting out things like ramming and boarding, which he actually mentioned, I'm quite certain he just wanted to prove how useless conventional weapons are against the Eldar

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Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Imperator5 » 18 April 2016, 07:57

Kadaeux wrote:
TheGoldenChicken wrote:I'm interested, what strategy did you use to beat said Eldar? Did it by any chance involve very large amounts of ramming?


Rams, Massed Torpedos, Teleport Assaults with generator priorities, occasionally using bombs etc.

Imperator5 wrote:Could you please provide any reasoning how they are not overpowered?
a-Their holofields protect from standard weaponry.
b-They are too fast to be targeted by abilities that their holofields don't get.
c-Their pulsars deal burst damage that is equivalent to totally accurate and longer ranged ork mega cannon.
d-Their favours give them +20 Troop value, negating LS weakness, or instant-through shields GUARANTEED LS (Orks were bashed for having a Shokk attack gun that mostly fails to succeed) or bonus FIFTY PERCENT stealth damage. Can apply to said pulsars.
e-Carriers? Darkstar ability negates them all.

There is no adjusting to their "style" even if one has to tailor their entire fleet to fight them, since any cooldown ability that twarts their attacks has 3-6 times the cooldown of their lances.
Shield overcharge may protect against lances, but only once for every 4 passes.
Scaring them off with a bomb (not damaging them, mind) can only happen for every 6 passes, IF the eldar player goes full retard and bunches the ship together.
And even if it worked, such a fleet would be vulnerable to the other 2 race. Where do I get my renown to always specify my fleet against the enemy I clairvoyantly know I'll be fighting?
Taunt? All eldar has to do is set facing to broadside, countered.
Ramming? Something that fast? Perhaps if eldar player goes AFK.

There are 4 things an eldar player needs to do for instant victory:
-Darkstar fighters.
-Avoid slow AOEs, rams and such. Burst out of it.
-Take pulsars.
-Set facing to broadside.

There all done.


Yes. All done pretending you know everything.
A: It MOSTLY protects against regular weapons, and despite the number crunching trying to claim it'd take 25 minutes to gun down eldar ships, the practical result is that it doesn't take near that long. Yes you can cite numbers all day long, i'll take actual gameplay experience over that.
B: Yes, often, but not always.
C: And only overpowered if you have the Battleship AND both Battlecruisers. BUT bear in mind, though I don't think they're overpowered in and of themselves I would still prefer them to work more like the TT Pulsars instead of this activated ability.
D: The troop Favour's problem isn't the +20, but the lore-shattering Avatar of Khaine nonsense, the Ulthwe favour, yes does largely negate their vulnerability to deep strikes, the Ranger strike is... in my experience on both sides, largely worthless a match is almost always decided before it even finishes cooling down for the first use and the stealth hasn't been a large factor in matches i've played.


There is NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE that can beat numbers. I'm sorry. Math is objective. You can't dismiss it. Not even Chris chan can.

Macrocannons have ...at the usual engagement range, 6k, 60% accuracy. Holofields, lets say the eldar player is retarded and doesn't take the holofields upgrade, lets though 20% of that. Now for the 20% armour....

That's 0.6x0.2x0.8=0,096

9,6% hit chance. Now lets say the eldar is not retarded and takes the 10%+ Upgrade.

0.6x0.1x0,8=0,048 A whopping 4,8% hit chance!


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http://forum.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=621

Please help me change skirmish to be customisable. Its very important for PVE players.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=515 Mod idea.

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Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Kadaeux » 18 April 2016, 08:01

Imperator5 wrote:There is NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE that can beat numbers. I'm sorry. Math is objective. You can't dismiss it. Not even Chris chan can.


Except it's not "just numbers". People can "run the numbers" as much as they like, but they assume they have all the information. Funny thing about that, experience tells anyone who's played that you CAN gun down the Eldar despite holoshields. It's the worst way to do it and pretty much the opposite from the TT, but it can be done and definitely doesn't take "25 minutes" to do. The numbers are even actually close to the holofield save from TT. On TT you had a 1 in 6 chance of hitting with anything except weapons batteries providing an 83.33% chance to block.

Weapons Batteries were more reliable than just about anything else and had better odds. I can't give exact numbers for that as it depended on how many batteries you were firing, the facing of both ships and range. But I can give an example.

Murder Class, Port Broadside, 20cm range, "closing" aspect. (Eldar closing on Murder Port side.) Holofields change right one bracket. They had Strength 10 batteries reduced to Strength 5 (5 dice) with a 4+ to hit on those dice. So approximately what? 25% chance to score a hit? *Using Lock-On would further change this.*

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Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby TheGoldenChicken » 18 April 2016, 08:08

Kadaeux wrote:
Imperator5 wrote:There is NOTHING IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE that can beat numbers. I'm sorry. Math is objective. You can't dismiss it. Not even Chris chan can.


Except it's not "just numbers". People can "run the numbers" as much as they like, but they assume they have all the information. Funny thing about that, experience tells anyone who's played that you CAN gun down the Eldar despite holoshields. It's the worst way to do it and pretty much the opposite from the TT, but it can be done and definitely doesn't take "25 minutes" to do. The numbers are even actually close to the holofield save from TT. On TT you had a 1 in 6 chance of hitting with anything except weapons batteries providing an 83.33% chance to block.

Weapons Batteries were more reliable than just about anything else and had better odds. I can't give exact numbers for that as it depended on how many batteries you were firing, the facing of both ships and range. But I can give an example.

Murder Class, Port Broadside, 20cm range, "closing" aspect. (Eldar closing on Murder Port side.) Holofields change right one bracket. They had Strength 10 batteries reduced to Strength 5 (5 dice) with a 4+ to hit on those dice. So approximately what? 25% chance to score a hit? *Using Lock-On would further change this.*


You can't just keep dismissing evidence saying that "It's not gameplay", do a test, one Eldar ship with holofield upgrade, against one imperial dauntless. Perhaps it'll take even longer due to Eldar ship dodging macro shots

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Re: Eldar meta too unfulfilling?

Postby Kadaeux » 18 April 2016, 08:16

TheGoldenChicken wrote:You can't just keep dismissing evidence saying that "It's not gameplay", do a test, one Eldar ship with holofield upgrade, against one imperial dauntless. Perhaps it'll take even longer due to Eldar ship dodging macro shots


Except it isn't evidence. It's people running numbers. It doesn't account for any other information, it also assumes that the numbers we have are ALL the numbers involved. And clearly it doesn't because it doesn't take 25 minutes to kill a Solaris with a Dauntless. *Unless you're using a Lance Dauntless and facing it head on, but people taking Lance Boats against Eldar, in TT and BFG:A should be rewarded with the punishing defeats they no doubt receive.*


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