Why can't upgrades increase the points cost of a ship?

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Otterz
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Why can't upgrades increase the points cost of a ship?

Postby Otterz » 28 March 2016, 06:21

This is ridiculous, why is everyone so against making upgrades increase the ship's point cost? To not do so is to make the game unnecessarily unbalanced. I just played a game against a guy with an ork fleet who had 5-6 ships, 4 upgraded with blood axe favor (nova cannons and stealth), all had plasma bombs and bunch of other upgrades. That is like 2000+ renown points worth of upgrades and I had to face him with my ships that had maybe a third of that in upgrades.

My ships were all half destroyed by the time I got into weapons range!

I managed to win the game only because of the ridiculous Ork cowardice system which for no apparent reason caused both of our fleets to run away simultaneously. In a stroke of luck because I had more escorts (who don't run) I was left with more ships and killed his 1-2 escorts to win.

The only thing more ridiculous than how terribly outclassed my fleet was, is the absurd manner in which I ended up winning.

I don't think upgrades increasing the points cost of ships in any way limits the persistence system, if anything it enhances it because it adds another layer of strategy. Instead of just spamming plasma bombs (which lets say add 10 points), maybe you invest in emission dampeners (which may theoretically cost less, say adding 5 points). The game stops being about what combination of upgrades is the most powerful, and starts being about which combination of upgrades is the most cost effective for what I want this ship to do.

You know like an actually tabletop game?

TheDeadlyShoe
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Re: Why can't upgrades increase the points cost of a ship?

Postby TheDeadlyShoe » 28 March 2016, 07:15

well there's a few problems with increasing the pts cost

1.) We just dont get that many points, so increasing points cost means that you just won't get to field very many ships at all.

2.) If that becomes the case, the focus will be on bullshit minmax builds with the best upgrades available and ONLY the best upgrades available and a lot of options will just become newb traps.

3.) It is very difficult to make points cost increases accurately reflect a ships power in a highly complex game system like BFG:A, since the benefit of different upgrades varies drastically from ship to ship. Once again this forces people into minmaxing.

The game DOES have a balancing mechanism for unfair fights, but it only looks at the admirals level. IE if you are fighting a level 8 admiral with your brand spanking new level 1 admiral, you will accrue a bunch of bonus points to help compensate.

For instance, my topped out Imperial account ending up doing Overlord+2 Sword Frigates (~245 points) vs 3 Bashas and an escort (~315 pts). I won that fight, but it was a close one.


I mean, I get it. If we're going to have a points system it should at least try to reflect the actual power of the ships being deployed, right? But it's more complicated than it appears at first glance. I think the ideal is that different admirals spend renown on different things, so as long as the renown costs are balanced admirals of equal level should be roughly equivalent to eachother. There are some flies in the ointment, but at least there is a plan. The biggest fly are that you can spend renown on things that dont increase your fleet's overall power, like retrainings and repairs, giving you a renown deficit against other admirals. Another fly is that you spend renown on your whole fleet, but you never field your whole fleet; therefore concentrating resources on a handful of ships is better thaan getting more ships.

Strongback
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Re: Why can't upgrades increase the points cost of a ship?

Postby Strongback » 28 March 2016, 08:23

I don't think upgrades themselves should increase point cost, however, I do believe you should get couple of free escorts in depending on the level difference between the opponent's fleet and yours.

Not admiral level mind you, just ship level.
Like if your opponent has 2x lvl 8 cruisers and you have 2x lvl 1 cruisers, it's only fair that you get a couple of free unupgraded escorts.

That way, weaker fleets would have a better shot at winning, experienced players get more renown from extra targets and everyone is happier.

Otterz
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Re: Why can't upgrades increase the points cost of a ship?

Postby Otterz » 28 March 2016, 19:39

TheDeadlyShoe wrote:well there's a few problems with increasing the pts cost

1.) We just dont get that many points, so increasing points cost means that you just won't get to field very many ships at all.

2.) If that becomes the case, the focus will be on bullshit minmax builds with the best upgrades available and ONLY the best upgrades available and a lot of options will just become newb traps.

3.) It is very difficult to make points cost increases accurately reflect a ships power in a highly complex game system like BFG:A, since the benefit of different upgrades varies drastically from ship to ship. Once again this forces people into minmaxing.

The game DOES have a balancing mechanism for unfair fights, but it only looks at the admirals level. IE if you are fighting a level 8 admiral with your brand spanking new level 1 admiral, you will accrue a bunch of bonus points to help compensate.

For instance, my topped out Imperial account ending up doing Overlord+2 Sword Frigates (~245 points) vs 3 Bashas and an escort (~315 pts). I won that fight, but it was a close one.


I mean, I get it. If we're going to have a points system it should at least try to reflect the actual power of the ships being deployed, right? But it's more complicated than it appears at first glance. I think the ideal is that different admirals spend renown on different things, so as long as the renown costs are balanced admirals of equal level should be roughly equivalent to eachother. There are some flies in the ointment, but at least there is a plan. The biggest fly are that you can spend renown on things that dont increase your fleet's overall power, like retrainings and repairs, giving you a renown deficit against other admirals. Another fly is that you spend renown on your whole fleet, but you never field your whole fleet; therefore concentrating resources on a handful of ships is better thaan getting more ships.


I would agree with this, except your forgetting one important thing. When you lose ships in a battle you arbitrarily have to wait 1-3 games before you can use them again, furthermore one level 8 admiral may be trying to level up a newly bought ship with no upgrades. Therefore even two lvl 8 admirals will likely never have the same amount of renown spent on a fleet, and since they are the same level the current matchmaking system will pit them against each other with the same amount of fleet points available.

On top of that admirals stop leveling at some point, so how do you balance a fight between a max level admiral who has been playing for 100 hours and has 10000 renown spent on ships, vs a max level admiral with 25 hours who has 2500 renown spent on ships. Now of course you eventually run out of upgrades for ships so those exact renown differences may be inconsequential but you get the idea.

I don't think that making upgrades cost points will be nearly as troublesome as you think. If anything min-maxing is worse now because you can spam nova cannons(in the case of the orks nova upgrade), micro warp, and plasma bombs with no extra cost in ship points. People who power build are always going to power build, it only makes less powerful upgrades more of a noob trap if the more powerful ones can be taken for no extra cost. Your saying that it is more balanced and more noob friendly if those power builders can optimize their fleet as much as possible without any downside?

If your main apprehension is that you want games to be as large as possible(have as many points as possible) than I think tindalos needs to just make a custom game mode where fleets can be built on the spot with upgrades based on points (also known as balance) as well as selecting total points available, and the mission type. However this is besides the point.

The game is fundamentally unbalanced and, i'm sorry to break any delusional bubbles, in its current state it CANNOT be balanced. You cannot balance a game of 40k if one player can only take 5 upgrades in their army and the other can take 20 based on how long they have been playing.

I feel like the only people who would be against this are the people who have their max level fleet and admiral and enjoy stomping players who don't have 100 bonus shields and plasma bombs on every ship.

TheDeadlyShoe
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Re: Why can't upgrades increase the points cost of a ship?

Postby TheDeadlyShoe » 28 March 2016, 21:23

I don't think that making upgrades cost points will be nearly as troublesome as you think.

Upgrades cost points in Mordheim but the system is a useless goddamn abortion with no reflection of actual combat power.

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averageintelligence
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Re: Why can't upgrades increase the points cost of a ship?

Postby averageintelligence » 28 March 2016, 22:39

Otterz wrote:This is ridiculous, why is everyone so against making upgrades increase the ship's point cost? To not do so is to make the game unnecessarily unbalanced. I just played a game against a guy with an ork fleet who had 5-6 ships, 4 upgraded with blood axe favor (nova cannons and stealth), all had plasma bombs and bunch of other upgrades. That is like 2000+ renown points worth of upgrades and I had to face him with my ships that had maybe a third of that in upgrades.

My ships were all half destroyed by the time I got into weapons range!

I managed to win the game only because of the ridiculous Ork cowardice system which for no apparent reason caused both of our fleets to run away simultaneously. In a stroke of luck because I had more escorts (who don't run) I was left with more ships and killed his 1-2 escorts to win.

The only thing more ridiculous than how terribly outclassed my fleet was, is the absurd manner in which I ended up winning.

I don't think upgrades increasing the points cost of ships in any way limits the persistence system, if anything it enhances it because it adds another layer of strategy. Instead of just spamming plasma bombs (which lets say add 10 points), maybe you invest in emission dampeners (which may theoretically cost less, say adding 5 points). The game stops being about what combination of upgrades is the most powerful, and starts being about which combination of upgrades is the most cost effective for what I want this ship to do.

You know like an actually tabletop game?


i think if they were to do this they would have to increase the points that a player could bring overall i mean the games are already too short and too small imo. This would only allow people to bring one ship a match. I'm lucky right now even if i go escort heavy to get 4 ships a match (which is insane).
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Bylak
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Re: Why can't upgrades increase the points cost of a ship?

Postby Bylak » 28 March 2016, 23:28

When I first started playing I assumed this was the case and was surprised when it wasn't. I suppose the ELO and admiral rankings will help balance it out a little bit, but it would be nice if ship level was taken into account somehow.
Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!

efty
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Re: Why can't upgrades increase the points cost of a ship?

Postby efty » 28 March 2016, 23:38

I completely support the idea of ship upgrades costing points. It's ridiculous to expect a brand new cruiser to do anything but die against one that's got half a dozen upgrades, skills and favours.

In BFG campaigns each ship refit would add 10% to the ship's cost, and Marks already cost points.

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averageintelligence
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Re: Why can't upgrades increase the points cost of a ship?

Postby averageintelligence » 29 March 2016, 01:00

efty wrote:I completely support the idea of ship upgrades costing points. It's ridiculous to expect a brand new cruiser to do anything but die against one that's got half a dozen upgrades, skills and favours.

In BFG campaigns each ship refit would add 10% to the ship's cost, and Marks already cost points.



yea but that was when you had 1500 points per fleet
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Deaddin
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Re: Why can't upgrades increase the points cost of a ship?

Postby Deaddin » 29 March 2016, 04:42

averageintelligence wrote:
efty wrote:I completely support the idea of ship upgrades costing points. It's ridiculous to expect a brand new cruiser to do anything but die against one that's got half a dozen upgrades, skills and favours.

In BFG campaigns each ship refit would add 10% to the ship's cost, and Marks already cost points.



yea but that was when you had 1500 points per fleet

Its pretty easy:
Upgraded ships cost more points
Allow players to select Fleet cost range when searching for a match

If you want big battles, select high Fleet costs as your min & max. If you want smaller skirmishes, select low min & max. If you just want to get into a battle quickly, select low min & high max.

Also, every month, do a quick balance pass where the most popular upgrades (top 10%) get increased in cost by 1 point, and the least popular upgrades (bottom 10%) get decreased in cost by 1 point.


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