Update 1.5.8536 - Patch Note

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BabyLionCub
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Re: Update 1.5.8536 - Patch Note

Postby BabyLionCub » 24 June 2016, 20:15

Force shutting down the game every time there is only 300 points for 2vs2 (so far, all of them). Am I ruining someones experience? Prolly. Do I care? Not anymore then the devs.

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Cryhavok
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Re: Update 1.5.8536 - Patch Note

Postby Cryhavok » 24 June 2016, 20:18

Perturabo-Liberal wrote:
Drakki wrote:
Perturabo-Liberal wrote:
Yeah, because having no counter at all to a certain tactic as one faction is incredibly fun. God forbid the devs slightly going against the stats in a tabletop game thet's been practically dead for several years in their RTS to solve major balance issues. It's not like we want people to enjoy playing the game, that stuff is for dorks.
Also, currently we have 1 completely inferior screen on a barge against 4 squadrons from another battleships with carrier capacity. Does this seem equal to 3 vs 8 or 2 vs 4 to you? Can you even count?


1 squadron effectively counters 2 enemy bomber squadrons, so the screen is not inferior at all.You also seem to forget about the 3 superior squadrons the battle barge sends in return. [ 10% bigger chance to hit enemy ordnance, 3 more shoots per squadron than defensive squadrons, -10 to enemy troop value if boarding, 1 boarding more than enemy assault boats squadron.]

We also have 9 upgrade slots on a battle-barge so it should be possible to fit 3 extra turrets to its already buffed turret array. If you put an support vessel next to the barge with another squadron then you would have neutralized an enemy specialized carrier ship and now can proceed to deal 100+ guaranteed damage to it at 12000 units, and that is not counting the thunder hawks which are the best ordnance in the game atm and will rip through the enemies 4 cover squadrons in one attack run.

Battle barge is not a carrier and ordnance is not the way of the astartes, if you stopped for a second and considered the balance of what you are proposing you would perhaps realize that giving it a full fighter screen would create a totally overpowered ship with, what you have put as "no counter at all to a certain tactic as one faction is incredibly fun".

Also, ""Can you even count?""
Take this 12 years old behaviour elsewhere, we are exchanging arguments here.


Stormhawks are inferior because they are just a fighter squardron with nothing fancy about them, but they are not affected by refueling system upgrade and also hog 1 skill slot. Barge may be fine with that, but SCs have just 2.
So, it you are fielding a battle barge it's 3-4 wasted slots on a fleet that doesn't have many to beguin with to get 3-4 fighter squardons which are actually worse than any other fighters in-game.

Can you read? Or count? Or listen to any arguments? Because you are wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

Each thunderhawk squadron contains 3 thinderhawks, each one takes 3 shots at an enemy ordnance. That's 9 attacks in total. Total HP pool is 6.
Now, chaos assault boat squardon has 2 actual boats and 4 fighters that shoot 2 times. That's 8 attacks in total. Total HP pool is also 6.
Not a huge difference, is it? Hardly any difference at all, actually. Thunderhawks do have better chances to get through, but only by a small amount, so RNG can still often negate the benefits.

Now to getting through fighter screens. This one is even easier. Let's say Despoiler has 3 launch bays just for balance's sake, even though it's not true. So it has 3 fighter squardons 6 crafts each 2 attacks per craft. That's 12 attacks per squadron against thuderhawks' 9. With the same HP pool of 6.
Now, i'm not really sure how attacks are applied because I don't think all the squadrons of 1 wave reach their destination simultaneously and I don't feel like digging through the whole Codex Sages topic, but we are looking at at least 27 attacks made by thunderhawks and 36 attacks made by fighters. Each has a 35% chance to hit, so approximately one third. That's 12 HP off thunderhawks which is 2 out of 3 squadrons disregarding the turrets and 9 off the fighters which is 1.5 of 3 squadrons.
SM on the other hand have a whopping 1 fighter wing per ship, so 12 attacks and 6 HP versus 24 attacks and 18 HP on chaos assault boats. Stormhawks get obliterated no matter what, while taking 3 HP off the assault boats disregarding the turrets only 1 of which statistically applies to an actual boat and not a fighter.
So, in the end of the day, there are 3 thunderhawks left to get through the ship's defence and attempt to deal a maximum of 3 crits, while chaos has 5 assault boats to deal a maximum of 5 crits.
Sure, SM have better chances of succeeding, but it is still 3 vs 5.
Do you understand what I'm saying? It doesn't get more basic than this.
A single Styx has the capacity to almost completely pulverise 2 fighter squadrons with 1 wave of it's assault boats. And what if chaos player decides to take *gasp* 2 carriers? Or even 3? Crazy, right. Never happens in game. But in the case such extremely unlikely situation happens, what should SM player do? Should he rejoice at a sight of his strike crusiers geting torn apart by masses of attack crast in the first engagement, because "ordnance is not the way of astartes" so it's fine for them to suck ass against certain fleets with no way of defending themselves? Should he be happy because everything should be as close to the tabletop as possible, beyond any point and reason, even though that game was turn based and had drastically different mechanics?
Oh, and by the way, scince you've glossed over this point like the rest of my argument I'll say it again - you can't even deploy your precious thunderhawks if you don't have any visible targets because marines can't seem to be bothered to just shoot incoming enemy attack craft. But I guess it's fine - it's not like we have running silent, disruptor skills, tzeentch clouds and fllets built entirely around stealth that you won't have any way of detecting, scince those stormhawks take up a skill slot on your every bloody ship.
I also find it hilarious how you are totally fine with 3 launch bays on the barge and therefore 3 squadrons of assault craft/bombers, but fighters are a no-no. I guees it's fine to break canon, but only when you feel like it, am I right?


You also need to account for the effect the homing missiles have on enemy fighter screens. I can't count the number of times I have had thunderhawks get through because their screens were too busy with the torpedoes coming in from every direction to deal with the thunderhawks.

In addition to that turrets can have a greater effect on fighters than you seem to be accounting for, since you can run interference on incoming ordnance by getting other ships close to it and letting multiple ships tear up the enemy formations. Of course they can do this to you too.

In addition there is the Chapter Master's improvement on the reload command also has the nice effect of letting the space marine launch ordnance (and torpedoes) more often than their opponent as well, so that is another factor that should be accounted for.
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Ahzek Ahriman
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Re: Update 1.5.8536 - Patch Note

Postby Ahzek Ahriman » 24 June 2016, 20:25

Black Library eh... and to think I was trying to break in there and gain all of its lore.... makes me shiver as if I were about to swallow something from Nurgle's personal pharmacy.

Anyway, most of the novel authors are complete idiots who write whatever they find "cool" without even once considering if it's half reasonable (within 40k standards at least).

I think most of us have seen this picture, and I find this scale the most plausible, I'm not a fan of making things retartedly huge just because "it's warhammer 40k". The same goes for turds who think Warlord Titans are kilometres tall just because of one stupid artwork by skilled, but equally idiotic author.

Spoiler : :
battlefleet_gothic_scale_chart_by_the_first_magelord.png
battlefleet_gothic_scale_chart_by_the_first_magelord.png (2.34 MiB) Viewed 429 times


General consensus seems to be between 5.5 to 8-9 kilometres, which is fairly precise given typical GW inconsistency. Just like in case of ongoing nerd rage about marines' height.


...what do you mean "it's not that Black Library"? Aaah I see. Well, off I go to resume my quest then...
The sentence below is true
Spoiler : :
The sentence above is false

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Cryhavok
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Re: Update 1.5.8536 - Patch Note

Postby Cryhavok » 24 June 2016, 20:31

When an author in a book writes any kind of dimension, I auto-translate it into "this is what the character in perspective is guesstimating X dimension to be" rather than any kind of accurate information.
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Perturabo-Liberal
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Re: Update 1.5.8536 - Patch Note

Postby Perturabo-Liberal » 24 June 2016, 20:39

Cryhavok wrote:
Perturabo-Liberal wrote:
Drakki wrote:
1 squadron effectively counters 2 enemy bomber squadrons, so the screen is not inferior at all.You also seem to forget about the 3 superior squadrons the battle barge sends in return. [ 10% bigger chance to hit enemy ordnance, 3 more shoots per squadron than defensive squadrons, -10 to enemy troop value if boarding, 1 boarding more than enemy assault boats squadron.]

We also have 9 upgrade slots on a battle-barge so it should be possible to fit 3 extra turrets to its already buffed turret array. If you put an support vessel next to the barge with another squadron then you would have neutralized an enemy specialized carrier ship and now can proceed to deal 100+ guaranteed damage to it at 12000 units, and that is not counting the thunder hawks which are the best ordnance in the game atm and will rip through the enemies 4 cover squadrons in one attack run.

Battle barge is not a carrier and ordnance is not the way of the astartes, if you stopped for a second and considered the balance of what you are proposing you would perhaps realize that giving it a full fighter screen would create a totally overpowered ship with, what you have put as "no counter at all to a certain tactic as one faction is incredibly fun".

Also, ""Can you even count?""
Take this 12 years old behaviour elsewhere, we are exchanging arguments here.


Stormhawks are inferior because they are just a fighter squardron with nothing fancy about them, but they are not affected by refueling system upgrade and also hog 1 skill slot. Barge may be fine with that, but SCs have just 2.
So, it you are fielding a battle barge it's 3-4 wasted slots on a fleet that doesn't have many to beguin with to get 3-4 fighter squardons which are actually worse than any other fighters in-game.

Can you read? Or count? Or listen to any arguments? Because you are wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

Each thunderhawk squadron contains 3 thinderhawks, each one takes 3 shots at an enemy ordnance. That's 9 attacks in total. Total HP pool is 6.
Now, chaos assault boat squardon has 2 actual boats and 4 fighters that shoot 2 times. That's 8 attacks in total. Total HP pool is also 6.
Not a huge difference, is it? Hardly any difference at all, actually. Thunderhawks do have better chances to get through, but only by a small amount, so RNG can still often negate the benefits.

Now to getting through fighter screens. This one is even easier. Let's say Despoiler has 3 launch bays just for balance's sake, even though it's not true. So it has 3 fighter squardons 6 crafts each 2 attacks per craft. That's 12 attacks per squadron against thuderhawks' 9. With the same HP pool of 6.
Now, i'm not really sure how attacks are applied because I don't think all the squadrons of 1 wave reach their destination simultaneously and I don't feel like digging through the whole Codex Sages topic, but we are looking at at least 27 attacks made by thunderhawks and 36 attacks made by fighters. Each has a 35% chance to hit, so approximately one third. That's 12 HP off thunderhawks which is 2 out of 3 squadrons disregarding the turrets and 9 off the fighters which is 1.5 of 3 squadrons.
SM on the other hand have a whopping 1 fighter wing per ship, so 12 attacks and 6 HP versus 24 attacks and 18 HP on chaos assault boats. Stormhawks get obliterated no matter what, while taking 3 HP off the assault boats disregarding the turrets only 1 of which statistically applies to an actual boat and not a fighter.
So, in the end of the day, there are 3 thunderhawks left to get through the ship's defence and attempt to deal a maximum of 3 crits, while chaos has 5 assault boats to deal a maximum of 5 crits.
Sure, SM have better chances of succeeding, but it is still 3 vs 5.
Do you understand what I'm saying? It doesn't get more basic than this.
A single Styx has the capacity to almost completely pulverise 2 fighter squadrons with 1 wave of it's assault boats. And what if chaos player decides to take *gasp* 2 carriers? Or even 3? Crazy, right. Never happens in game. But in the case such extremely unlikely situation happens, what should SM player do? Should he rejoice at a sight of his strike crusiers geting torn apart by masses of attack crast in the first engagement, because "ordnance is not the way of astartes" so it's fine for them to suck ass against certain fleets with no way of defending themselves? Should he be happy because everything should be as close to the tabletop as possible, beyond any point and reason, even though that game was turn based and had drastically different mechanics?
Oh, and by the way, scince you've glossed over this point like the rest of my argument I'll say it again - you can't even deploy your precious thunderhawks if you don't have any visible targets because marines can't seem to be bothered to just shoot incoming enemy attack craft. But I guess it's fine - it's not like we have running silent, disruptor skills, tzeentch clouds and fllets built entirely around stealth that you won't have any way of detecting, scince those stormhawks take up a skill slot on your every bloody ship.
I also find it hilarious how you are totally fine with 3 launch bays on the barge and therefore 3 squadrons of assault craft/bombers, but fighters are a no-no. I guees it's fine to break canon, but only when you feel like it, am I right?


You also need to account for the effect the homing missiles have on enemy fighter screens. I can't count the number of times I have had thunderhawks get through because their screens were too busy with the torpedoes coming in from every direction to deal with the thunderhawks.

In addition to that turrets can have a greater effect on fighters than you seem to be accounting for, since you can run interference on incoming ordnance by getting other ships close to it and letting multiple ships tear up the enemy formations. Of course they can do this to you too.

In addition there is the Chapter Master's improvement on the reload command also has the nice effect of letting the space marine launch ordnance (and torpedoes) more often than their opponent as well, so that is another factor that should be accounted for.


I disregarded turrets specifically because it's an equal factor for both players, so it helps your opponens against ordnance just as much as it helps you.
My point was more about the SM's inability to effectively counter carriers, rather than doing damage with their ordnance. But anyway, torpedo distraction seems like a very situational thing and will require insane skillshots to rely on them as a reliable vay to get through screens, so their value is questionable.
Chapter Mster does help, but it doesn't solve the core problem.
Honestly, I'm not even asking to make fighters avaliable from the start - make them an upgrade just like gunships, it would still be a million times better than what we have now.

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Cryhavok
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Re: Update 1.5.8536 - Patch Note

Postby Cryhavok » 24 June 2016, 20:50

Perturabo-Liberal wrote:Stuff... and things.


I am not disagreeing with you, just trying to point out options to deal with the situation. I don't like the 3 minute cooldown on the fighter squadron skill.

Perturabo-Liberal wrote:torpedo distraction seems like a very situational thing and will require insane skillshots to rely on them as a reliable vay to get through screens, so their value is questionable.


I use homing torpedoes. As you maneuver around the map they end up coming in from multiple directions on their own, especially if you scatter your ships that launch them, so there really isn't skillshoting involved, more like autofiring. I've been using the vanguard mk 1s to field a huge number of torpedoes and time my ordnance to approach/hit at the same time. The ship's speed lets it dive into range just long enough to launch ordnance when it is time, then get back out. The Chapter Master's boosted reload special order also helps here, because it makes the combustion gauge refill a lot faster as well, giving you and edge against even ships that have the same base speed.
Last edited by Cryhavok on 24 June 2016, 20:51, edited 1 time in total.
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BabyLionCub
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Re: Update 1.5.8536 - Patch Note

Postby BabyLionCub » 24 June 2016, 20:50

Could the Lore talk go into a different thread? There are still people here who have actual issues with the patch that are trying to get some focus on it so the game is worth playing for us.

Please set 2vs2 AI skirmish to 350 FP minimum for all modes. Currently can't play with Battlebarges when I play with my friend which is exceptionally annoying since next ship in my roster is a cruiser that is more a light cruiser then anything.

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Re: Update 1.5.8536 - Patch Note

Postby Perturabo-Liberal » 24 June 2016, 21:03

Cryhavok wrote:
Perturabo-Liberal wrote:Stuff... and things.


I am not disagreeing with you, just trying to point out options to deal with the situation. I don't like the 3 minute cooldown on the fighter squadron skill.

Perturabo-Liberal wrote:torpedo distraction seems like a very situational thing and will require insane skillshots to rely on them as a reliable vay to get through screens, so their value is questionable.


I use homing torpedoes. As you maneuver around the map they end up coming in from multiple directions on their own, especially if you scatter your ships that launch them, so there really isn't skillshoting involved, more like autofiring. I've been using the vanguard mk 1s to field a huge number of torpedoes and time my ordnance to approach/hit at the same time. The ship's speed lets it dive into range just long enough to launch ordnance when it is time, then get back out. The Chapter Master's boosted reload special order also helps here, because it makes the combustion gauge refill a lot faster as well, giving you and edge against even ships that have the same base speed.


Yeah, I can see how massive amount of torpedoes can help getting some crits in. At this point it becomes more of throwing as much stuff as possible at your opponent and hope he gets overwhelmed, though.

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Cryhavok
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Re: Update 1.5.8536 - Patch Note

Postby Cryhavok » 24 June 2016, 21:09

Perturabo-Liberal wrote:Yeah, I can see how massive amount of torpedoes can help getting some crits in. At this point it becomes more of throwing as much stuff as possible at your opponent and hope he gets overwhelmed, though.


That is exactly what it is. I should also note that the ordnance I send against enemy carriers is thunderhawk assault boats, not bombers, and I focus weapons. Statistically speaking, stuff inevitably gets through, and crits will inevitably happen, and then their launch bays will inevitably get crippled, they will then use their repair skills to bring them back on line, and you keep it up until their repair skill is on cooldown and their launch bays are crippled and if fires and hull breeches haven't killed them off, then you switch to bombers and murder them.

It just takes a long time, and requires patience, but it isn't an auto lost battle, the result either way is something either side will have to fight for.

Personally, I consider combined arms chaos to be the most difficult and fun opponent my space marine fleet can face.
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Re: Update 1.5.8536 - Patch Note

Postby BabyLionCub » 24 June 2016, 21:22

At the very least we need a back button for when we get any modes that does not have 350 points.


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